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Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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A right Royal Fokker!
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 12:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

"...Stephen, another colour question; the profile shows the undercarriage wing to be Dark Green, is this correct? It just seams odd that the wheels and struts are painted yellow and not the wing, unless just the top half was painted yellow which makes even more sense? Mal "



Hey Mal, a good rule of thumb is, if they painted the landing gear they would also paint the axle wing. See my OAW build in the feature on "The Spotted Nosed Thorougbred." Also as a continuatiuon of your last post I had to do some checking to be sure. The cutout for the lower wing was capped off by a section of either sheet metal or varnished and painted plywood. Usually I glue the wing inplace sand it flush and fill the seams. The I rescribe the lines slightly out board for and aft of the original divisions. You could simply glue a section of .005 thous sheet / card plastic over the area.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 04:03 AM UTC
Kit 5 colour Lozenge

Just going back through my notes on the Eduard 5 colour lozenge I thought I might give you all another heads up. The bolt widths were greater on the 5 colour so on the wing tip piece you will probably have to cut off about and 1/8" or 3/16" to get a nice fit. In anycase the wing tip itself is where you would cut it from not the seam that butts up against the other sections.

Wing Tips
Also in both the 4 & 5 colour upper and lower colours. The wing tips fit better if you cut 4-5, 1/8" slices into the outer wing tips. Before you dip them in water.
TedMamere
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Posted: Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 04:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Nice work there Jean-Luc, the paint looks spot on. Did you trim the decals close or did you leave on the carrier film? Did you line them up with the centre of the wing leading edges or did you line them up at the rear?
Can you tell me if the fuselge crosses are thin enough that I will be able to paint over them without it being obvious they are decals, or do you recomend that I do as I had intended and paint them on?


Hi Mal!

I applied the decals so they overlap on every side. Once they have set (after a few hours) I sanded the excess film away using very fine (and used) sanding paper. It worked very well. I always do that to trim decals on hard edges. The final result is better than cutting them of. I used the same technique for the fuselage decals.
To be honest, the fuselage crosses (I still have to tone them down yet) will be a little thick I think. Best would be to paint them on the fuselage. But my dragon decals will cover them so I think I can live with it. Worth is the fact that the decals are slightly misaligned. It is very noticable on the crosses because the white lines are thin. I looked in my own Royal Class box and the decals have the same problem. So spraying them, though not an easy task, will solve these two issues at the same time.


Quoted Text

Hey Mal, a good rule of thumb is, if they painted the landing gear they would also paint the axle wing.


Hi Stephen!

This means that the axle wing of my Fokker could be red instead of dark green?

Jean-Luc
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 09:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Stephen! This means that the axle wing of my Fokker could be red instead of dark green? Jean-Luc


Take into consideration the life span of this machine and the poor quality images we have you could go either way. Painting it after repairing damage would be common. Seeing a line up of Jasta 15 machines (and JG II for that matter) show that they apparently wanted a uniform appearance. Lets check the references.

Fokker D. VII Aces of WWI, pt. I by Franks & Van Wyngarden. Osprey pub. 2003.
Jagdgeschwader Nr. II by Greg VanWyngarden, Osprey, Aviation Elite Units 19. 2005.

Both your's and Mal's profiles are presented. Mal's (Ltn. Leusch's) has painted landing gear and wheels. I would go for the axle being yellow as well.

Yours in the Jasta 15 (and in its later Jasta 19 markings) show typical factory camouflaged landing gear and wheels. I would say your axle wing would be factory as well.

Here is a bit of food for thought. Usually the commander's aircraft has all the appropriate markings and paint stores are preferred to his ground crew and the other unit members tend to play catch up. In most cases Jasta 15 machines specifically stayed focused on red forward fuselages and blue rear fuselages and horizontal tail units. The forward cabane struts were painted red in about 50% of the cases.
TedMamere
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Posted: Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 11:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Take into consideration the life span of this machine and the poor quality images we have you could go either way.


Hi Stephen!

For esthetic reasons, I would go for all red (undercarriage, axle wings and wheels). But the Dark Green color would make more sense as these parts of the plane were even more "in contact" with dirt, sand and maybe water while taking off and landing, than the other parts of the plane. But what German WW1 color scheme was supposed to "make sense"? I think I'll go for the all red option! :-)

Jean-Luc
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 02:11 PM UTC
Considering colour scheme and their making sense leads me to discuss my chosen profiles.

A mchine that both Greg VanWyngarden and Dave Roberts of Datafile fame have commented on. What we know for sure is that the top wing on this machine was 5 colour lozenge and the lower wing was 4 colour. Considering the other comments I have made on this machine and its cowling panels being unique. These were probably modified in the field due to an industrious ground crew.

One other comment is that records from Jasta 46 members say that the noses were black not red. Looking closely at the proposed scheme note that red and yellow play some part. This is due to an association that this machine might have come from a previous Jasta such as Jasta 18.

Both schools of thought are presented in Anthology 2 with reasonable evidence. Yet for me the binding truth is the recorded eyewitness account of a unit member.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 02:27 PM UTC
Next is ...

Noting the strong evidence that this Jasta 43 machine not only was previously assigned to Jasta 18 but was the former mount of that unit's commander Ltn. August Raben. The units colours were red noses with white rear fuselages and tail units. Also a black raven ( a play on the commander's name) was affixed on the fuselages sides. Yet Raben's own bird marking was not black but either red or white on his other machines (Fokker Dr. I and later D.VII.)

Noting the proposed white fuselage underside I am convinced that the original red was probably left intact. Note if you will the lowest red stripe on the fuselage and you will see that it lines up perfectly where the red begins and ends on the Jasta 18 machines on record. So the white srtipes were applied over the previous red field. Also the two broad wing stripes seen on the upper surface of the top wing were usual notations of a Jasta or flight commander. Ltn. Werner Voss employed them on his Albatros D. III for example. Other forms of this were chevrons like the ones Udet was fond of on his Albatros and Fok. Dr.I types.

In the next war chevrons were notations of flight status in formations to an even larger degree in the Luftwaffe.
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Posted: Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 03:47 PM UTC
A very dense minefield indeed
Thanks again Stephen, I think I will glue on the lower wing and add a piece of 5 thou plasticard. I now know why the yellow is painted further back, on the underside than the side and top devision, cool

The fuselage was back in the spray booth yesterday for a spot of pre-shading on the yellow nose area and wheels, I knew I should have done the axel wing as well Doh! Not a real problem as I intend to weather the axel wing quite heavily, due to it's proximity to the ground

I might not start the decalling today, I'm picking my daughter up from the airport after her holiday. It's a bank holiday on Monday though so I should be able to catch up a bit.
Mal
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 04:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text

A very dense minefield indeed
Thanks again Stephen, I think I will glue on the lower wing and add a piece of 5 thou plasticard. I now know why the yellow is painted further back, on the underside than the side and top devision, cool


StephenJean-Luc Mal

Thats what we are here for Mal clearing the minefields for the rest of the troops to follow...like Sappers. Also remember that yellow panel is Eduard's intrepretation. It makes more sense to me to paint the cover plate and fuselage under surface blue.


Quoted Text

The fuselage was back in the spray booth yesterday for a spot of pre-shading on the yellow nose area and wheels, I knew I should have done the axel wing as well Doh! Not a real problem as I intend to weather the axel wing quite heavily, due to it's proximity to the ground


What colour are you using to pre shade for the yellow?


Quoted Text

I might not start the decalling today, I'm picking my daughter up from the airport after her holiday. It's a bank holiday on Monday though so I should be able to catch up a bit. Mal


Family first!
TedMamere
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Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 12:40 AM UTC
Hi all!

I'm finished with the lozenge decals! Now Stephen, don't tell me I used the wrong ones! :-)



They were overall pretty easy to work with expect for the wingtips were I had to make some cuts. Another advice: don't let your fingers for a long time on the same spot. The decals have the bad habit to stick on them!



I also build the Spandau guns using of course the PE parts.



Tomorrow I'll apply the wing rib decals. it should not be too difficult but for sure a long job...

Jean-Luc
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Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 02:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Also remember that yellow panel is Eduard's intrepretation. It makes more sense to me to paint the cover plate and fuselage under surface blue.

Another PM-N (Russian A/P mine) in the field
Is that the same as the fuselage blue?

I've pre-shaded with black, yellow requires a dark colour for pre-shading as it takes a, relative, large amount of paint to cover. Brown would have worked and possibly better, but I use a brown wash on yellow so I get a bit more interest and contrast, well that's the theory.

Anyway I had a change of heart and glued the bottom wing to the fuselage and also gave the wings, and other items that will recieve the lozenge decals, a coat of gloss white paint, and, of course the white fin and rudder (also gave my Me 163 it's white nose ) I had intended just to use Klear over the white primer but for some reason I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I should be painting the yellow tomorrow and hopefully start the lozenge decals, looking forward to that

Looking very Good Jean-Luc
Mal
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 05:28 AM UTC
Greetings all;

Jean-Luc nicely done sir. As for the lozenge also nicely done.

Mal, yes same fuselage blue. probably chipped and scratched from removal and re-attachmnet. But then again the cowling panels might have...

Have begun the last of my rigging. As for the propellers I am using a couple of kit items painted to resemble the laminated wood.
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 11:36 AM UTC
Greetings all;

One down (Jasta 43) one to go! I have about 2-3 hours more on one (Jasta 46) and will shoot the images tomorrow.
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 01:51 PM UTC


Quoted Text

"...I noticed the small rudder was offset. I suppose this was a feature of the real plane to counter the torque effect of the engine and to "trim" the aircraft straight. It's nice that Eduard reproduced that! Jean-Luc "



Greetings Jean - Luc Yes the rudder fin / stabilizer was off set.
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Posted: Monday, May 29, 2006 - 01:10 AM UTC
I haven't got as far as I hoped today (DIY ) but The yellow parts are painted and because I used a couple of drops of dyers Iwas able to get it back in the spray booth for a light coat of blue, Pics tomorrow I am going to use thin strips of masking tape over the fuselage formers? so that when the full coat of blue is on these will show slightly lighter. I have also decided to apply the fuselage cross decals, rather than paint them on as I'm a bit behind, I also want to see if I can hide the "thickness" of them, we'll see.

I did start the underside lozenge decals and they went on quite easily, except that I didn't quite start in the center (it looked central but the second one showed it wasn't). I was a little worried that the short side might not make the wing tip so I cut off a 1.5mm strip off the 3rd piece on, and added that to the other side. It worked on evening up the distance but I don't think it was necessary as having now finished there was plenty spareoverlap Anyway it made me think









Mal
TedMamere
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Posted: Monday, May 29, 2006 - 02:00 AM UTC
Hi All!

Mal, welcome to the wonderful world of lozenge decals!

I didn't put the rib decals today but ovesprayed the fuselage cross...



... and sprayed all the struts, axle wing, wheels etc...



I have a question for you Stephen! In the instructions, it is said to put the PE part 27 over the engine. This looks like a "bullet heat" protection. On the few reference pics I have I don't often see this device fitted on the aircraft. Was it only used on mission? Did all the plane have this thing?



Thanks in advance Stephen...

Jean-Luc
TedMamere
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Posted: Monday, May 29, 2006 - 09:27 PM UTC
Hi all!

Small update...



It took me one hour to get the rib decals on the underside of the top wing. One more hour will be needed for the upperside and two more for the lower wing and the ailerons I think. Four hours in total!

Jean-Luc
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, May 29, 2006 - 11:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text

"Hi All!...I have a question for you Stephen! In the instructions, it is said to put the PE part 27 over the engine. This looks like a "bullet / heat" protection. On the few reference pics I have I don't often see this device fitted on the aircraft. Was it only used on mission? Did all the plane have this thing?



Thanks in advance Stephen... Jean-Luc "


Greetings Jean_Luc! The real use of the troughs was a protection from the intermitant tracer rounds igniting the oils and fuel fume elements that may be present near the tops of the cylinders during normal operations. These were found to be unnescessary when the venting problem was alieviated. Yet they could still be found on later production machines. Pfalz D. XII types used them throughout their productions on inline types as well.
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, May 29, 2006 - 11:54 PM UTC
Mal & Jean-Luc,

Nicely done gents! Do remember though the machines in question had been in use for some time.

Jean-Luc....at least three - four months.

Mal...one to two months.

All during a real time in history when the German Fliegertruppe were in retreat (post 20 August 1918.) Personnel were being pulled on a regular basis just to keep troops on the ground at the front. Cleaning Stains was low prioriety and repairs were done but not always in a timely matter. Replacement items may have been scavanged from derelict aircraft. Even at the factory level we see ailerons covered in 5 colour fabric on a wing that was otherwise covere in 4 colour fabric. As on my builds whole wings or tail unit components were changed out to keep machines flying. Also the longer a machine was at the front the quicker the varnish went from gloss to flat.

Quick quiz...
1. what is LCT and what was it used for?
2. what is a sure sign for Benzine poisioning?

TedMamere
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Posted: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Do remember though the machines in question had been in use for some time.

Jean-Luc....at least three - four months.

Mal...one to two months.


That's nice! I can weather my plane more than Mal! :-)

Thanks Stephen!

Jean-Luc
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Posted: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:45 AM UTC
I haven't been able to get done as much as I wanted today, to cut a long story short I've spent most of the day writing a letter of complaint to a motor company and doing DIY So I haven't been able to make much progress but progress has been made

I applied the fuselage crosses over the partial coverage of blue and started applying the upper wing top losenge decals. This time I took the trouble to find the centre which made things a lot easier. I have also started to apply thin lengths of tape over the ribs on the tail plane and fuselage formers. This may or may not give a nice effect but we shall see.
Do you have any ideas about weathering Jean-Luc, I have some and a leaky engine sounds cool, weathering wise. I plan on doing a similar thing as over the blue part of the airframe, on the wings, after the rib tapes are on then spraying a colour(?) possibly Smoke, to simulate shadow, similar to how Nils does his see through doped linen effect.





The lozenge decals still require trimming as they're still not dry. I must say that they are actually pretty easy to work with, now I know to find the correct starting point first. If they are positioned very close to their final position there is plenty of time to move them into the correct position before moving them causes rips. Once cured they conform very well, so a big thumbs up from me, so far on the decals. This of course doesn't take into account whether or not they are in the correct shades, but I'm not worrying about that with this build and they still look pretty cool. When I show this off at Scale Modelworld, in November, I will simply say, to anyone who queries the colours, "were you there" when they say no, well they can't argue can they
Good question on the "tracer tray" Jean-Luc I was just going to fit it. Stephen, do you know if it was fitted to my aircraft? looks like a nice piece of hardware so I hope the answer is yes
Cool work on the rib tapes Jean-Luc, did you trim them first? What brand of Dark Green have you used for the strut fish plates etc?

Mal
TedMamere
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Posted: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 01:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Do you have any ideas about weathering Jean-Luc


Hi Mal!

First let me say you are doing a fine job on your model. It's funny but also weird to see someone else doing the exact same things as oneself... :-)
About the weathering: I think I will spray shadows like you but also paint scratches all over the airframe and wings to simulate ground handling. I will also try to replicate oil, dirt, sand etc... As it is now, the plane, with the lozenge decals just look too clean, almost like a toy. The biggest challenge will be to hide the "decal" effect. I think I will apply "filters" over them.


Quoted Text

Cool work on the rib tapes Jean-Luc, did you trim them first? What brand of Dark Green have you used for the strut fish plates etc?


No, I don't trimmed the rib tapes. What appears grey on the decals sheet is in fact transparent. Once applied on the model, it gives a nice "shadow" and I think with the carrier film the rib decals will be less fragile.
I used Tamiya XF-73 Dark Green (JGSDF) and XF-70 Dark Green2 (IJN). The latter was mixed with future and was translucent. I often use colored Future as a last coat because it adds depth and variations to the color and gives a smooth finish.

I finished the upper wing ribs and will add the others tomorrow. Then I'll apply the decoration decals (dragon, crosses, logos etc...)

Jean-Luc
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Posted: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 01:53 AM UTC
Howdy ALL!

My most humble apologies for jumping in here at {apparently} the almost last moment but, I am most sorry to have missed out on this wee group build of yours.....I would have found it most enjoyable indeed!
My loss for having missed it......... ....maybe next time.

What I also must say after spending the time to read thru the thread is; observing the work you have all done has been like having the run of a candy store when you have a severe sugar craving

And, it must be said....our good JackFlash's input has been priceless to say the least. But, taking the opportuntity to at least say a little more......he's from Colorado after all!

Can't wait to see al the finished entries.

Tread.
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Posted: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 05:33 PM UTC
Mal,
Although I would be honored to be included in the same class, I was not the one who did that great shadow effect on the doped wings. That would be Lars Qvarfordt (Repainted) who did that. It was most impressive too.

Nils
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 10:14 PM UTC
Greeting Treadhead;
Feel free to build an Eduard Fok. D.VII and post your images here. This is not a contest but a joint review. As Mal has aptly put it clearing a dense minefield and we are just paving the way for others. Model On!
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