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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Sherman Winter Camouflage
BARtender
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United States
Joined: January 09, 2003
KitMaker: 6 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 04:18 AM UTC
Does anybody know if the M4A3 "late production" Shermans were done in winter whitewash for the Battle of the Bulge? Were they delivered to the front in time? Also, did any of them have applique armor plates attached? I know they served in January of '45, but I haven't seen any pictures of them whitewashed.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
BARtender
thebear
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Quebec, Canada
Joined: November 15, 2002
KitMaker: 3,960 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 05:32 AM UTC
HI Bar ....Now what do you mean by a late M4A3 ? are you talking with hvss type suspention? Are we talking 76 mm, 75 mm or 105mm cannon? Are we talking split hatch or with commander coupola? Are we talking wet or dry stowage ??Most M4A3s were wet . If it is wet stowage you don't need to add the extra armor over the ammo bins...If you want to make it a dry stowage then make sure you use the split commanders coupola.You really don't see too many easy eights cammo'ed in white.(Not many American vehicles did receive any winter cammo what so ever ..There are a few though seen around the Ardennes or just after the BOB...Don't think too many GI's took time to white wash with the germans on thier tails. Probably more in January though.
hth
Richard
BARtender
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United States
Joined: January 09, 2003
KitMaker: 6 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 06:06 AM UTC
Sorry about that. It's the Tamiya kit... 75mm gun, split hatch, and not sure on stowage (wet or dry). Any idea when this type entered service?

BARtender
Favorisio
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United Kingdom
Joined: December 30, 2002
KitMaker: 277 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 07:06 AM UTC
I am just starting this exact same kit, and am hoping to put in a Bulge dio, so any ideas or suggestions for the paint job would be appreciated here too.

Roger
M4A1-M4A3
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Indiana, United States
Joined: November 14, 2002
KitMaker: 78 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 07:07 AM UTC
If it is the new Tamiya 75mm kit you have your choice, wet/dry, split or new version hatch. That tank would be fine to white-wash, if you want to get net picky, take a look at some photos, and do a little research and you can find the correct markings to put on it, so that your tank would match a Sherman that saw winter service and did receive a white wash. I hope this helps. If by chance you have the older kit, and want to up grade it to new, let me know and I can send you the parts.
FOR ME I AM A SHERMAN NUT
thebear
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Quebec, Canada
Joined: November 15, 2002
KitMaker: 3,960 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 08:14 AM UTC
The only thing in the tamiya kit that you shouldn't do is put the new hatch with the extra side arrmor ,because the change over to the new hatch coinsides with the wet stowage ...but then they could be retro fitted in the field so hey ...have fun !

Richard
Greg
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Oregon, United States
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 06:14 AM UTC
With the Tamiya #35250 kit, go right ahead and whitewash. Many US AFV's of all types were whitewashed. I am a Shermanaholic, and my references show M4A3, M4A1, M10, and M36 vehicles all whitewashed (in varying degrees of thoroughness) during the Bulge. Some units just striped it over the OD, others covered just the upper hull, and still others did the suspension too. I have a couple of photos of an M36 getting painted; a fellow is using about a two gallon bucket and pouring it over the suspension: bogies, wheels, tires, and all. No rubber showing on the wheel after this...

A lot of this was done on an ad hoc basis as crews found time. Many might have been done before the battle, as the sector was quiet and time was available for such things.

Remember too that the battle lasted until the end of January, to include the erasing of the Bulge. Six weeks is a long time, so I think that anyone who wished to would probably find the few hours it takes to put some whitewash on.

Greg
Digger
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Australia
Joined: July 31, 2002
KitMaker: 94 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 02:13 PM UTC
Hi,

I got the Sherman for Christmas and am going to try and paint it as per the box art.

My question is:

Should I whitewash before I put on the extras like shovels picks etc? Would these have been taken off by their crews before whitewashing.

I don't propse to whitewash over the stowage like boxes and bags etc - but I'm not sure about stuff which would ordinarily be attached to the tanks.

Also, does one just whitewash straight over the decals? My thinking is yes - but I'm not sure.

Finally if anyone can send any reference photos to me or in response I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanking you in advance.

Digger
azizmaz
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United States
Joined: October 18, 2002
KitMaker: 174 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 02:46 PM UTC
There is a great article on white washing armor with pastels in the February 2003 issue of FSM. It's very simple and if you mess it up you can take it off and try it again. I highly recomend it. #:-)
screamingeagle
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Connecticut, United States
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 07:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

.(Not many American vehicles did receive any winter cammo what so ever ..There are a few though seen around the Ardennes or just after the BOB...Don't think too many GI's took time to white wash with the germans on thier tails. Probably more in January though.
hth
Richard



Sorry bear ...... I totally disagree, there was a very good percentage of U.S. armor with white-wash during the Bulge. Especially the TD Btn's. armor. American soldier always found some time when in biouvac to get them brushes moving

- ralph
Hollowpoint
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Kansas, United States
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 2,748 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 17, 2003 - 01:30 AM UTC
Not meaning to beat up on thebear, but I also have to disagree with his advice about the applique armor on the M4A3 -- no matter which commander's hatch is used. I have yet to see a dry-stowage M4A3 with the high-bustle, loader's hatch turret that comes with the Tamiya kits. Unless you can find a photo (of an actual vehicle, not some model) of the applique hull with the late turret, leave the applique armor off.

Digger -- do the whitewash with or without the tools on, there are photos of vehicle both ways -- it depended on the crew. Remember that the whitwash would have worn off the frequently used tools. Also, I'd always suggest pllying markings before adding any weathering -- including whitewash.


Azizmaz -- I tried that technique from FSM and wasn't particularly happy with the results. I may wash it all off and try again this weekend. Perhaps I didn't grind the pastels fine enough or maybe there's something funky with my tap water, but the results I got weren't nearly as smooth and even as those shown in the article photos.
TUGA
#034
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Setubal, Portugal
Joined: April 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,718 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 17, 2003 - 04:16 AM UTC
Hi,

Here at ArmoramA you have a list with web pages about the Sherman - Sherman Tank.

There you have lots of photos from Shermans in action.

HTH
M4A1-M4A3
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Indiana, United States
Joined: November 14, 2002
KitMaker: 78 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 17, 2003 - 04:37 AM UTC
I have never tried pastels, but I have white washed 3 shermans in different forms. Now for me I build the sherman,paint (with details) wash, dry brush, and seal it then take on the task of white washing. By all means it is not pretty, I look at it this way, If I was a tank crew member, and say 2 other people on this forum were crew members with me, we would be B S ing, chewing tobacco, dipping snuff, smoking, keeping warm, we would want to get the job done and done with speed, every person that would be white washing would be doing it in his own way. So in white washing a model, I take this in account, showing different area's done differently. If anyone is interested I will tell you about the styles I use.
My 2 pennies worth..........And the main thing....HAVE FUN!!!!!
thebear
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Quebec, Canada
Joined: November 15, 2002
KitMaker: 3,960 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 17, 2003 - 05:49 AM UTC
Hey guys ...Getting it with both barrels here ain't I ....lol As for the whitewash in the BOB I do agree that by the time Patton got into it that many were repainted ...But at the start of the bulge ,remember it hadn't started snowing yet so ,I'm sure that the front line troops didn't have the time to repaint them ...Look at the vehicles that were ambushed at Poteau ...No whitewash ..But as I did say that by the beginning of January(ok maybe end of December) most were...As for the high bustle turret you are probably right ...I just read a bit in the Hunnicut book on the Sherman that said that they changed from dry ro wet in March 1944 ...Never thought to check when they changed the turret ...sorry for the mix up .
Must admit I'm not up to date on Shermans as much as I used to be ..
Richard
Hollowpoint
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Kansas, United States
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 2,748 posts
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Posted: Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 02:33 AM UTC
No sweat, Bear. That's why we have reference books -- cuz we can't remember everything. It sparked my memory because when the original Tamiya M4A3 came out back in 81, everyone was wondering why they included the applique armor -- they could have used the plastic to include sponson bottoms instead!

If you have Hunnicutt's book, check out page 275. In short, it says that the M4A3W first came off the assembly line in February 1944. Many were produced with the split commander's hatch because of a shortage of vision copulas. All had the oval loader's hatch and, by default, the high bustle turret.

BTW, I took my Firefly with the FSM pastel whitewash on it to the KC AMPS meeting this week to get some other opinions. A couple guys suggested that by the time I put it on a base and added a little residual snow here and there, the clumping problem wouldn't be as noticable. I still haven't decided yet -- I may just wash it all off and try again.