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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
M4A1 Sherman Italeri help
boosahmer
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California, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 12:52 PM UTC
I have a Rubio aluminum 76mm barrel for this model, but it looks smaller than the plastic barrel that comes with the kit. Am I missing something here? Please help
Kencelot
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 01:22 PM UTC
The kit's barrel is dead wrong...don't use it to make a comparrison. Jordio's is correct.
avukich
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 03:01 PM UTC
Kenc--Are you sure that the Rubio barrel is correct? I know that the Italeri barrel is way off, but I thought that not only is it incorrectly shaped, but that it is too short which would mean that the Rubio barrel is even shorter still.
Kencelot
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 03:16 PM UTC
You know Adam, I might be back peddling here on that answer. Hmmm...I know Elefants is way off, but I thought JR's was correct...??? I'll have to take a look through my things and get back on that.
I have not reached that part of the build yet...soon.
lifestyle
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 03:20 PM UTC
Advice ITaleri Sucks
LOL Branden
avukich
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 01:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Advice ITaleri Sucks



I couldn't disagree more. I think that Italeri kits are actually pretty damn nice especially when one considers the price. This M4A1 Sherman kit is a great kit and it is over 20 years old. It completely blows away any kits from Tamiya that are that old. Yes, the new Tamiya kits are better than the new Italeri kits, but they do cost double and for the most part they do German stuff. Italeri is the one that is doing some of the odd US armor such as the Marine Sherman, LVT series, DUKW, etc. I am not a big fan of US armor, but those kits are all pretty darn nice. IMHO, it wasn't until Tamiya dumped the motorization crap that their kits got nice, but they charge a freakin' premium for their kits. I currently have the M4A1 Sherman, Crusader II, and Puma by Italeri (well I have a couple of the reboxed Zvezda kits, but they don't count) and I have found them all to be easy kits to build and very nice to boot.

I'll get off my soap box now.
Kencelot
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 01:28 AM UTC
Bummer, I don't have a JR 76mm tube in my collection. I thought I did. I just have the 75mm & the 105mm.

I think I'm opting to just fix the kit's gun.

PS: I agree with Adam on the Italeri kits. You get a great bang vs. buck with them. Interesting subjects, descent detail, and terrific price.
avukich
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 01:39 AM UTC
Kenc--If you want a really nice barrel look into CMDs 76mm. It is really nice and supposedly the most accurate one out there.
Kencelot
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 03:17 AM UTC
Thanks there Adam but, if I buy one more kit (no matter what the cost) my wife will throw me over the balcony! I'll have to force myself into fixing the kit's barrel. Could be quite a learning experience.

I'm getting the putty and sand paper ready...
SS-74
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Vatican City
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 03:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks there Adam but, if I buy one more kit (no matter what the cost) my wife will throw me over the balcony! I'll have to force myself into fixing the kit's barrel. Could be quite a learning experience.

I'm getting the putty and sand paper ready...



Ken Barrel is easy to sneak in....
Kencelot
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Florida, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 03:23 AM UTC
...shhh, I think she's watching...
boosahmer
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California, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 04:34 AM UTC
Well, you guys may be right about Italeri kits, but I got this one online from model-expo during a sale a few weeks ago for $5.69......shipping usually costs THAT much!! (I shoulda bought five of them!!)
Anyway, thanks for the help.
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 04:40 PM UTC
Boosahmer:

If you have the Rubio 76mm gun for the Sherman, that's about as good as it gets. What dimension are you concerned about? Length? Diameter?

The Italeri M4A1 can be built into an exceptional model with a bit of TLC. And a new gun barrel. And a new set of tracks. New air filters are nice. A good PE set adds a lot. New .50 cal. Wire hatch handles. A bit of texture on the turret, hull and final drive.
lifestyle
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 05:26 PM UTC
Yes Italeri Can be Made into nice museum models but you must buy lots of aftermarket stuff and after that you spent as much as the tamiya kits. Wich I prefer As little as ive modeled I just prefer tamiya but maybe its because i suck I dont know.
Branden
Plasticbattle
#003
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 09:28 PM UTC
Hey Brendan. I must agree with the other guys about Italeri. I like them and the fact they will go with kits that are not mainstream. I believe they deserve a little credit for that alone. The problem with only building newer Tamiya kits is that they are good enough now to have their own clichés ...... pour some glue in the box, shake well, and lift out the finished model. Building Italeri models can give a good enough model depending on your criteria, but give a good basis for detailing and going all the way. At the end of the day, you will pick up more modelling skills building up an Italeri kit than a Tamiya, which will serve you well in the future.
I thought the idea of buying aftermarket was to solve problems existing in the kit.

Quoted Text

If you want a really nice barrel look into CMDs 76mm. It is really nice and supposedly the most accurate one out there.


So now we cant depend on aftermarket items either. This is getting more and more absurd. Whats the point of buying add ons if they are not right either? Im confused!
avukich
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 01:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Yes Italeri Can be Made into nice museum models but you must buy lots of aftermarket stuff and after that you spent as much as the tamiya kits. Wich I prefer As little as ive modeled I just prefer tamiya but maybe its because i suck I dont know.



I'm going to guess by your comments on Italeri that 1) you have never actually built an Italeri kit and you are getting your viewpoints from reading or 2) you built a kit that wasn't actually mastered by Italeri and was instead a rebox of some other companies' kit. Before you trash the entire company, I suggest that you go out and buy their M4A1 Sherman, Sd.Kfz 234/2 "Puma", or Crusader II kit (these are the only ones that I have actually built and can talk about) and build it. If you follow along with the group build of the Italeri Sherman kit you will see that we are building it OOB except for the gun barrel which some have chosen to replace (i.e. not "lots of aftermarket stuff") and you will see what can be done with the kit.

I get so sick of people thinking that Tamiya's s**t doesn't stink. Let me assure you now that even in Tamiya's newest kits there are accuracy problems and if you think that you can just slap them together without any modeling skills and they will be showstoppers you are sorely mistaken. I'm not saying that Tamiya isn't a good company because they are, but what I am saying is that I think that it is unfair of people to think that Tamiya is the ONLY good company because that is just plain wrong. There are plenty of good companies out there and there are plenty of up and comers that are getting better with every model they produce. Italeri kits used to be the standard by which all others were judged until the Tamiya kits have gotten so much better in the past 10 years. Italeri hasn't gone down in quality in that time. Unfortunately, they just haven't improved as much as Tamiya, but they are improving and they weren't bad to begin with.

Sorry for getting up on my soapbox, but it bothers the hell out of me when someone comes along and bashes a company and not a kit. These types of comments do no good as all they serve to do is make new modelers shy away from that company which isn't fair. This also bad because in the worst case it could cause a company to go under if it gets constantly trashed which is bad for the hobby because compitition keeps prices down and gives incentive to companies to get better to beat their competition.


Quoted Text

So now we cant depend on aftermarket items either. This is getting more and more absurd. Whats the point of buying add ons if they are not right either? Im confused!



Unfortunately, just like any model you have to look at individual items and not the company. Sometimes when it comes to barrels companies get their measurements from an odd vehicle. Case in point: the Jagdtiger at Aberdeen proving grounds is the vehicle that DML and almost every AM barrel manufacturer took their measurements from. What none of them took into account was that the vehicle was damaged while the gun was in full recoil and it never came out of this recoil. So all of the barrels that were produced off of this vehicles measurements are too short. Sometimes companies just get it dead wrong. That is the case with the barrel for this Italeri M4A1. It has a stepped appearance (like the barrel was telescoped), but that was never the case with this gun. Then Elefant came along and made a replacement barrel that was also dead wrong as they copied theirs directly from the Italeri kit. The Rubio barrel doesn't have this stepped look, but is a bit too short for some reason. The only barrel that I've heard that has all of the measurements correct and doesn't have this stepped look is the CMD one. I guess the moral of the story is don't just go out and buy AM stuff, but do your homework instead. If you care enough about accuracy to buy AM stuff then you should look into what's available and post questions here and/or on other forums to get some feedback on what is the best value and what to stay away from.
lifestyle
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Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 02:35 AM UTC
I see your are an avocate for Italeri Hey some People love Em
I have built at least six italeri kits and wther it be ships tanks or what not.
The quality isnt bad but when i did there panther it was all screwed and when u pay 20 plus dollars for a kit this can really piss you off so I guess I was just flaming sorry.
In fact most of time italeri has more detail parts then Tamiya

Also I think the new acedemy kits are pretty sweet #:-)

All I say is the company should produce quality modles or atleast attemt to

HAppy MOdeling Branden
avukich
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 02:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I see your are an avocate for Italeri Hey some People love Em
I have built at least six italeri kits and wther it be ships tanks or what not.
The quality isnt bad but when i did there panther it was all screwed and when u pay 20 plus dollars for a kit this can really piss you off so I guess I was just flaming sorry.
In fact most of time italeri has more detail parts then Tamiya

Also I think the new acedemy kits are pretty sweet

All I say is the company should produce quality modles or atleast attemt to



I guess what I was trying to say was that all companies have their good and bad kits. I'm not a huge advocate for Italeri, I just thought that they were being unfairly trashed. Yes, they've had a few stinkers (the Panther A isn't great, but then again neither is the Tamiya Panther A, in fact it is far worse), but so has Tamiya.

Academy, since you mentioned them is a good example of a company that gets trashed a lot (especially with their new M3). They used to rip off old Tamiya kits that weren't good to begin, but now they have some pretty nice models to offer. If someone built a few of their old Tamiya knock-offs only they might think that Academy sucks and stay away from them, but then they would be missing out on the new stuff that is pretty nice.

I guess my point is: don't judge based on manufacturer, but on a kit to kit basis (this sounds very much like what they teach children on stereotyping #:-) ). Just ask a few questions of fellow modelers before you buy a kit and you should a good feel for the quality of a kit.
m60a3
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Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 03:31 AM UTC
Getting back to the gun tube, any suggestions on how to "fix" the kit's original? Also, about how much short is the Rubio tube?
TUGA
#034
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Setubal, Portugal
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Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 08:55 AM UTC
Hi,

At TRACK-LINK you have an article Aftermarket Gun Barrels for Shermans - Methods and Madness by Kurt Laughlin.

HTH

avukich
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 08:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

At TRACK-LINK you have an article Aftermarket Gun Barrels for Shermans - Methods and Madness by Kurt Laughlin, about the diferent Sherman AM barrels.



Unfortunately, this article doesn't cover the 76mm barrels which is what this particular kit requires. It only deals with the earlier 75mm barrels.
Kencelot
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Florida, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 12:12 PM UTC
The kit's barrel measures something like 2mm too short. Hardly noticeable but easily corrected by shortening the gun's mounting on the inside of the shield.
The step in the barrel near the mantlet should not be there. This can be sanded out along with the muzzle's ring (optional). Removing all the steps on the barrel will make the gun represent the type M1 gun. If you leave the muzzle ring, remove the section rear of the groove in it, this will represent an M1A2.

There were three types of 76mm guns used. The M1, M1A1, & M1A2.
The M1 had a taper to the barrel, ie: it was wider at the breech and narrow at the muzzle.
The M1A1 had the taper removed, and was straight from breech to muzzle.
The M1A2 was the same as the M1A1 with the addition of the threads at the muzzle for a muzzle brake.
avukich
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Friday, November 01, 2002 - 12:50 AM UTC
Kencelot--Do you have any idea which of those 3 barrels was more likely to have been seen at Normandy?
Plasticbattle
#003
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Donegal, Ireland
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Posted: Friday, November 01, 2002 - 02:58 AM UTC
avukich .... good reply about the whole Italeri/academy/etc situation. I totally agree. Although Tamiya are putting out some top-notch new kits, they have had many kits that were well below par as well. Taking each kit on their own merits not on manufacturerers merit is the way to go.
Kencelot ..... great information about the gun barrell problem. That should set some minds at rest. I want to rework the Italeri barrell as an experiment. Is the barrell stong enough to withstand fileing/shaping do you think. If the hollow in the inside takes the outer side´s shape would it get too thin after fileing? Do you know what Im trying to say? Just wondering.

I will have caught up with the group build after this weekend. And Im actually looking forward to some serious building now!
avukich
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Friday, November 01, 2002 - 03:07 AM UTC
PlasticBattle--Thanks for being on my side.

About the kit barrel: I replaced it myself, but I did put it together (because it is attached to the breach) and then sawed the barrel off so that I could replace it. I am pretty sure that it is more than strong enough to withstand filing and shaping. It was pretty solid and acutally, in terms of seam lines it was one of the better barrels that I have come across. Go look at the M4A1 (76)s over on TL. There are a number of them that were done from the Italeri kit and a few of them said that they had reworked the kit's barrel so it's been done before. You shouldn't have any problem with it. I am just lazy and didn't want to spend the time getting the barrel right. I am instead spending all of my time scratch-building the tool and tow cable attachments out of sheet brass, styrene strips, sheet styrene, lead foil, aluminum foil, and wire. It took a night or two for each of the first 4 steps, but I have been working on step 5 & 6 for the past week and a half.