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Armor/AFV: IDF [Israeli Defense Forces]
Armor and AFVs of the IDF army from 1947-today.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Doubts about IDF Sherman training tank
ABR
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Cordoba, Spain / España
Joined: April 22, 2006
KitMaker: 3 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 22, 2020 - 09:13 PM UTC
Hi guys.
This is the firt time I write in Armorama.com.
I’m trying to build the IDF Sherman trainig tank, a casting M4A1 small hatch upper hull I suppose on an M4A1E8 lower hull, using the M4A1 (mid production) Tasca Sherman, the HVSS suspensión from AFV Club and the magnificent walkaound of this tank from Primeportal (http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/anon_i ... g_trainer/).

So, I have some questions about this tank:
-In the first picture below, we can see a wide welding line in the rear engine desk of this tank. Does this welding line serve to elongate the M4A1 small hatch upper hull to accommodate it on the M4A1E8 lower hull?, I supose the M4A1E8 hulll is longer that the M4A1 small hatch hull but I don’t know if it’s true.
- In the second picture, the rear plate angle seems to be more inclined in this tank that in the original M4A1 small hatch, so can the rear plate have the same angle as the M4A1E8 rear plate?
Could it have happened that the IDF cut the rear part of the M4A1 small hatch and replaced it with the similar part of a M4A1E8 rear part previously cut and welded?


TIA
Saludos desde Córdoba (Spain)



tanknick22
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United States
Joined: February 19, 2009
KitMaker: 1,137 posts
AeroScale: 3 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 22, 2020 - 09:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi guys.
This is the firt time I write in Armorama.com.
I’m trying to build the IDF Sherman trainig tank, a casting M4A1 small hatch upper hull I suppose on an M4A1E8 lower hull, using the M4A1 (mid production) Tasca Sherman, the HVSS suspensión from AFV Club and the magnificent walkaound of this tank from Primeportal (http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/anon_i ... g_trainer/).

So, I have some questions about this tank:
-In the first picture below, we can see a wide welding line in the rear engine desk of this tank. Does this welding line serve to elongate the M4A1 small hatch upper hull to accommodate it on the M4A1E8 lower hull?, I supose the M4A1E8 hulll is longer that the M4A1 small hatch hull but I don’t know if it’s true.
- In the second picture, the rear plate angle seems to be more inclined in this tank that in the original M4A1 small hatch, so can the rear plate have the same angle as the M4A1E8 rear plate?
Could it have happened that the IDF cut the rear part of the M4A1 small hatch and replaced it with the similar part of a M4A1E8 rear part previously cut and welded?


TIA
Saludos desde Córdoba (Spain)







I have no idea what what seam or grinding mark is
the M4A1 and the M4A1E8 are all the same nothing was changed on the hulls the HVSS suspension was added 2nd you can judge the upper picture to the lower one becuse the were shot at different angles
hazzardm
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 13, 2010
KitMaker: 53 posts
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Posted: Saturday, August 22, 2020 - 10:49 PM UTC
no confusion on this one.

the basic vehicle is a mid prod A1, retro fitted with hvss on the same hull, no need to graft an upper hull to a lower hull as they are welded together! the weld line on the rear of the hull casting is a well known idf mod to change the rear hull angle to increase the room for more airflow to the radiators, this mod is seen as the on m50,, m51, m32 based on short hulls

MJH
m4sherman
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Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 23, 2020 - 02:33 AM UTC
Mark fully explained what was done and why. Inside your circle you can see a metal wedge added to fill the gap created by changing the angle of the rear plate. Also, don't forget to notch the lower hull. That was done on all HVSS hulls to get access to the inner bolts to the road wheels. You can see the notched side plates in your side picture.
ABR
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Cordoba, Spain / España
Joined: April 22, 2006
KitMaker: 3 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 - 03:06 AM UTC
Thank you everyone for that very comprehensive answer.

The doubts are disappeared.

Saludos from Córdoba (Spain).
hazzardm
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 13, 2010
KitMaker: 53 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 - 03:48 AM UTC
no probs

interestingly though, Randall, from memory I am pretty sure that the M32 with HVSS at Latrun is on a bolted lower hull so doesn't have the notches cut in it, almost certainly unique but never say never!!

MJH
barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 - 04:15 AM UTC
IIRC tanks built new with HVSS had notches as standard, and MDAP rebuilds got notches cut when HVSS was added, but IDF frankenshermans patched together from French and other stocks and then continually upgraded? Who knows what they got? The notches are useful, but not necessarily crucial, so I expect a few conversions getting missed out was no big deal.
m4sherman
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Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 - 10:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

no probs

interestingly though, Randall, from memory I am pretty sure that the M32 with HVSS at Latrun is on a bolted lower hull so doesn't have the notches cut in it, almost certainly unique but never say never!!

MJH


I have the walk around of an M32, but it has a welded hull, and is notched. So I went looking at my other walk arounds and I have an early, riveted hull, monument tank, most likely an M4, and it does not have the hulls notches. Hadn't noticed that before. Thanks for pointing it out.