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Armor/AFV: IDF [Israeli Defense Forces]
Armor and AFVs of the IDF army from 1947-today.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Merkava oil painting issue
ignc1981
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United States
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Posted: Friday, June 05, 2020 - 03:47 PM UTC
Hi there.

I'm building my first model and selected the Tamiya Merkava.
But when I started to apply the oil paints for weathering, it looks like the original acrylic painting is being attacked by the white spirits that I'm using. original color is turning whiteish... almost as a stain.

I'm using Testor's oil paint with this White Spirit from the picture.






Do you guys have any advice?

Thank you!
Rodrigo
TopSmith
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Washington, United States
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Posted: Friday, June 05, 2020 - 05:11 PM UTC
Isn't testers an enamel paint?
Kevlar06
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Posted: Friday, June 05, 2020 - 06:05 PM UTC
Absolutely, Testors square bottle paint is an Enamel, not an oil paint, so that’s part of the problem. It uses a paint thinner as a carrier for the pigment. But white spirits will sometimes also leave a “frosty” looking residue as well. There are two ways to solve that problem— re-coat with a second light coat of white spirit, or overcoat with a light coat of flat finish, the frosty appearance should go away. There are many on-line tutorials for using oils as filters, I suggest you seek some out. Here’s a couple I like, you’ll have to skip past the ads in the second one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNcUJ0BACO4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV26I1WQ01U&feature=emb_title

VR, Russ
ReluctantRenegade
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Wien, Austria
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Posted: Friday, June 05, 2020 - 06:38 PM UTC
What color did you use for the basecoat?
ignc1981
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Posted: Saturday, June 06, 2020 - 02:54 AM UTC
Hi there,

I'm glad that I came to this community for advice. I thought that I had lost all my work. Thank you very much for your help.

@Greg / Russ
Thanks for the info. On my blessed ignorance, I thought that oils and enamels would react similarly, but I understand that this is not true now. Just so I ensure that I understood.
- To thin Tamiya acrylics, I should use Tamiya X20A
- To thin oil paints, I should use white spirits (the one on my photo is an "OK" one?)
- To thin enamel, I should use enamel thinner?

@Russ, I will definitely take a look on these videos to understand better how these works and will try to apply the solution that you suggested.

@Israel, the whole painting process was:
- Tamiya NATO black
- Tamiya White to highlight
- Mixture of Tamiya Khaki and Grey to the IDF color
- Khaki+Grey and a touch of white to highlight more
- Tamiya TS80 Flat Clear to seal
- Decals
- and finally Tamiya TS80 over the decals to seal again...

... then is when I started to work with the oil paints and got the result above.

Again, thanks for all your help!
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, June 06, 2020 - 05:38 AM UTC
Rodrigo,
What oil paint are you using? You have the process of thinning correct, but you really can’t apply enamel paints quite like you can oil paints for weathering purposes (filters, washes, etc.). Enamel thinners used as washes can sometimes attack the acrylic base coats if applied to heavily. This is especially true when using Tamiya “acrylics” as a base coat, since Tamiya acrylics are actually “acrylic lacquers”, and will sometimes react to enamel thinners. True oils usually come in a tube, and are sold as “oils” with linseed oil as the carrier. Oil paints can be used over both acrylics and enamel base coats, when mixed with white spirits. I personally prefer to use “Turpenoid light” as a thinner for my oil washes, although this does occasionally dry with a “frosty” appearance, which will go away under a light flat coat, or a subsequent application of Turpenoid light. Watch the videos for a better explanation of how to use oils for weathering base coats.
VR, Russ
18Bravo
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Saturday, June 06, 2020 - 09:40 AM UTC
That's a nice, clean build. I still love that old kit. I think the answers you've gotten will suffice. I'd like to suggest cutting out that fire extinguisher receptacle. It really enhances that kit. There are more little tweaks but that's probably the easiest one.
mudlark
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South Australia, Australia
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Posted: Saturday, June 06, 2020 - 11:02 AM UTC
Whatever you end up using practice/test first on a scrap piece of plastic or old kit. That way you will spot problems without ruining
your model.
I've never had a problem with turps based washes over Tamiya, but then I don't flood the model with them.
Scarred
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Posted: Saturday, June 06, 2020 - 04:33 PM UTC
Testors acrylics also come in square bottles like their oils. But since you said enamel I would use Testors thinner to thin it. I've found some thinners and Turpenoids are just too hot. I use the thinner made by the paint manufacturer to take one random variable out of the paint equation. Paint manufacturers are making their products proprietary so mixing brands is a cause for issues.

Did you let your paints cure? I'll go 3 days to a week before weathering. Not only do they need to dry they need to cure. Acrylic house paints can take up to 30 days to fully cure. Automotive paints can take longer. When they got done painting my truck they told me not to wash it for at least 6 weeks to allow everything to cure.

Also did you put down a clearcoat to protect your paint from your weathering materials? A thin layer of dullcote or glosscote or a similar clear coat will keep your paint safe from solvents in weathering products.



Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, June 06, 2020 - 06:02 PM UTC
I think the issue is he’s using an enamel (Testors) as a wash over acrylic lacquers (Tamiya), mistaking enamels for oils, and using white spirits for the wash. However, I always use tube oils and Turpenoid light when doing filters and washes, it’s a synthetic white spirit that is much “gentler” than a true turpentine, which will also dissolve enamels. Turpenoid light won’t attack acrylics or enamels, making it perfect for oil filters and washes. It’s primarily used to thin oils and speed drying time (3-4 hours) for oil based paints. It will occasionally leave a “frosty” appearance (similar to what he has with his white spirit-enamel wash). But this can be easily remedied by flat coating or just using a second light coat of Turpenoid light. I buy my Turpenoid light at Hobby Lobby.
VR, Russ
Scarred
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Posted: Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 01:44 AM UTC
I have always been hesitant on turpenoids. I've seen some pretty harsh ones that would eat thru any paint I could throw at it. Thanks for that info.
TopSmith
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Posted: Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 02:01 AM UTC
Russ, do you have a brand or skew number?
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 04:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Russ, do you have a brand or skew number?



Greg, the brand is Weber, “Turpenoid light” the bar code number is 18911801636. It can be found with the rest of the thinners in the oil paint aisle. It’s a synthetic “substitute” for turpentine, and says “turpentine substitute“ right on the label in small print. A 16oz. Bottle will cost about $15, so use your 40% off coupon if you get it from HL. Make sure it says “mild” in the labeling. It will leave a frosty residue if used heavily, but as I mention above, that disappears under any overcoat. I used it extensively on my build of Rodens Holt Tractor and 8” BL gun below:

https://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=14507

VR, Russ
Leopard-2
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 05:49 AM UTC
I guess that the problem is caused by the clear coat (Tamiya TS80) reacting with the WhiteSpirit. Tamiya spray cans don't contain the acrylic stuff.
Removed by original poster on 06/11/20 - 01:01:50 (GMT).
ignc1981
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Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 - 01:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Rodrigo,
What oil paint are you using? You have the process of thinning correct, but you really can’t apply enamel paints quite like you can oil paints for weathering purposes (filters, washes, etc.). Enamel thinners used as washes can sometimes attack the acrylic base coats if applied to heavily. This is especially true when using Tamiya “acrylics” as a base coat, since Tamiya acrylics are actually “acrylic lacquers”, and will sometimes react to enamel thinners. True oils usually come in a tube, and are sold as “oils” with linseed oil as the carrier. Oil paints can be used over both acrylics and enamel base coats, when mixed with white spirits. I personally prefer to use “Turpenoid light” as a thinner for my oil washes, although this does occasionally dry with a “frosty” appearance, which will go away under a light flat coat, or a subsequent application of Turpenoid light. Watch the videos for a better explanation of how to use oils for weathering base coats.
VR, Russ



Hi Russ, This is the oil paints that I've been using.

I was trying to do a filter with this paints and Testor's enamel.
Mixing them with White Spirits and I just tried Turpenoid (not the light one) and I got the frosty appearance every time. And as you said, it disappears with a coat of clear coat.

I also tried to use Testor's thinner to keep everything underthe same brand and it just removed the acylic base underneath, making me have to paint that part again... it was a little bit frustrating.
ignc1981
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Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 - 01:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Testors acrylics also come in square bottles like their oils. But since you said enamel I would use Testors thinner to thin it. I've found some thinners and Turpenoids are just too hot. I use the thinner made by the paint manufacturer to take one random variable out of the paint equation. Paint manufacturers are making their products proprietary so mixing brands is a cause for issues.

Did you let your paints cure? I'll go 3 days to a week before weathering. Not only do they need to dry they need to cure. Acrylic house paints can take up to 30 days to fully cure. Automotive paints can take longer. When they got done painting my truck they told me not to wash it for at least 6 weeks to allow everything to cure.

Also did you put down a clearcoat to protect your paint from your weathering materials? A thin layer of dullcote or glosscote or a similar clear coat will keep your paint safe from solvents in weathering products.


Hi Patrick,
I left it curing for 24 hours. For the acrylic paiting and then another 24 hours after I applied Tamiya TS80 Clear Flat Coat.
So... maybe that was the problem? Should I wait longer before starting the weathering? Or instead of Flat, should I use a Semi-Gloss coat first in order to make it easier for the thinner to flow?
Thanks for your help.
Removed by original poster on 06/11/20 - 01:18:15 (GMT).
ignc1981
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Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 - 01:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Russ, do you have a brand or skew number?



Greg, the brand is Weber, “Turpenoid light” the bar code number is 18911801636. It can be found with the rest of the thinners in the oil paint aisle. It’s a synthetic “substitute” for turpentine, and says “turpentine substitute“ right on the label in small print. A 16oz. Bottle will cost about $15, so use your 40% off coupon if you get it from HL. Make sure it says “mild” in the labeling. It will leave a frosty residue if used heavily, but as I mention above, that disappears under any overcoat. I used it extensively on my build of Rodens Holt Tractor and 8” BL gun below:

https://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=14507

VR, Russ


Hi Russ,
Turpenoid light, like this one?
https://www.amazon.com/Weber-1636-16oz-Turpenoid-Light/dp/B01CGBWT2C?th=1
ignc1981
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United States
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Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 - 01:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I guess that the problem is caused by the clear coat (Tamiya TS80) reacting with the WhiteSpirit. Tamiya spray cans don't contain the acrylic stuff.


Hi Bernd, thanks for your advice.
I bought online this Modelmaster semi-gloss coat to try next time.

Would it be better that TS80? Also the fact that it was "flat" also contributes on reacting with the white spirits?
Thank you.
Kevlar06
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Washington, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 - 02:30 PM UTC
Rodrigo,
No, the brand is Weber, the name is Turpenoid Light. Here a link to a photo:

https://images.ctfassets.net/f1fikihmjtrp/7LAOsBz20KSC4eHXlK5kvt/4b822c37ee348a4b24a127d5de737233/01042-1006-4ww.jpg?q=80&w=250

This still leaves a slight “frosty” appearance when applied as a wash or a filter, but nothing that isn’t fixed with a subsequent coat or a flat top coat. I think your main problem was trying to mix your Testors paints as a wash with white spirit. The oils you are using should be fine, but remember, they are better suited to white spirit (or Turpenoid Light) than the Testors enamels Or acrylics are. Did you view the two videos? They do a good job of explaining oil filters and washes.
VR, Russ
Leopard-2
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 - 05:31 PM UTC
Hi Bernd, thanks for your advice.
I bought online this Modelmaster semi-gloss coat to try next time.

Would it be better that TS80? Also the fact that it was "flat" also contributes on reacting with the white spirits?
Thank you.[/quote]

Wrong attempt because that's an ENAMEL product. White- and MineralSpirits in general are supposed to thin these paints among others. Even if they have fully cured doing washes over them most propably would solvate and attack enamel paints. First of the basic chemistry and second because of the amount of thinner used for a wash.

What you need is a clear coat of different chemical composition than enamel (if you want to do oil-/enamel-washes on it) and that would be an ACRYLIC varnish. Tamiya X-20 or Gunze (Mr. Hobby) H20 for example.