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Armor/AFV: Braille Scale
1/72 and 1/76 Scale Armor and AFVs.
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Discolouration around tank gun muzzle? ...
pbennett
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 06:22 AM UTC
I have noticed a tendency among modellers to show black discolouration around the muzzle of their tank's gun. While this may be accurate in certain cases, I have read that it is not found on all tanks. I guess it is dependent on the type of ammunition being used. Can anyone provide information as to where this feature would be appropriate. I am currently tackling a 1/72-scale Pz.Kpfw.VI Tiger.

Thanks,

Paul
grunt136mike
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 06:53 AM UTC
Hi Paul;

It may have to do with how much the 88mm Gun has been fired ! Repeated High rates of Fire mite have A tendency to Burn the Muzzle Break !! It always Best and try to research A vehicle and go from there. It all comes down to your personal preference as to which you want to depict in your vehicle !

CHEERS; MIKE.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 07:01 AM UTC
Short answer: No.

In some cases the muzzle ends have been painted in a dark (black ??) colour. Possibly to avoid gun grease from cleaning showing up or possibly just a design/fashion thing.
The combustion gases travel forward at high speed, think muzzle velocity, so they do not curl around backward to deposit soot et.c. Getting the gases to go sideways requires baffles, such as in a muzzle brake.

I have seen images showing neatly painted muzzle ends on Pz IV and I think also a Tiger I or II.

The "artistic" discolouration fancied by many modellers is just their impression and fantasies about how it ought to be. The gas flow dynamics are the same now as they were 200 years ago so any YouTube clip showing combustion gases leaving the barrel of any gun will be usable to see how the gases behave.

Inside the baffles of the muzzle brake is another thing , completely different, gases travelling forward at high speed (muzzle velocity for the Sherman was 1850 ft/second and that was considered too low back then ...) and then smacking into the muzzle brake to get diverted 90 degrees or more WILL leave soot on the baffles)

Sherman vith muzzle brake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpJ8EoGmLuE
TD's 1944: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLmvMlTFNv4
6-pdr firing blanks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWSI4t6wDe8
M1A1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu4AX02HHHI
Abrams in slow-mo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uppnGhpxxM
Challenger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbQPtyDQq1I

/ Robin
HeavyArty
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 07:02 AM UTC
No, it really isn't right on any modern (post WWI) tank. The gunpowder doesn't leave marks on the barrel as it comes out. The muzzle may become stained from the cleaning products used on it being slopped on the outisde of the barrel end, but not from the gunpowder.

Robin beat me to it with a much better answer.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 07:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

No, it really isn't right on any modern (post WWI) tank. The gunpowder doesn't leave marks on the barrel as it comes out. The muzzle may become stained from the cleaning products used on it being slopped on the outisde of the barrel end, but not from the gunpowder.

Robin beat me to it with a much better answer.



I had that debate (read: lady fight, I wrote another word instead of lady, one which carries more punch, starts with b and ends with an itch ....) on a Swedish model forum years ago. The "artistic" modelers DID NOT appreciate getting one of their favourite techniques shredded.
/ Robin
barkingdigger
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 08:08 AM UTC
IIRC German barrels were usually supplied in a heat-resistant dark grey primer, and were then painted at the assembly factory along with the rest of the turret in presumably very durable service colours. Any replaced in the field would need painted to match the tank, under less than ideal conditions, with less than factory-tough paint, so it is possible (note the lack of definitive here) for paint around the muzzle to be battered by the gun blast and cleaning action that might cause field-applied paint to thin or discolour. But that all depends on the paint, the way it was applied, what it was thinned with, etc. And of course there is some evidence of replacement barrels remaining in primer grey for a while. But by and large I suspect most were painted/camouflaged and stayed so for the tank's short service life. Let the torrent of opinions commence!
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 09:03 AM UTC










Full size: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lX9JPB8vwBU/XZsB2VbIAtI/AAAAAAACw0c/KWH8dyIKu8Ygk4RnzDJh5oSe6Err2vvUgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Rye%2Bfield%2BPz.Kpfw.IV%2BAusf.J%2BLate%2BProduction%2BPz.Beob.Wg.IV%2BAusf.J%2B%2B%25287%2529.jpg
Note the sharp boundary between darkened/painted and the rest of the barrel.


Some soot/darkening of the baffles in the muzzle brake but not on the front of the muzzle brake
Kevlar06
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 09:58 AM UTC
As you said Robin, ‘tis a myth perpetuated by artistic license. But there is in fact sometimes a faint residue or discoloring caused by propellant blowback and heat on older weapons, newer weapon systems with efficient burning propellant don’t show it quite as much effect. In addition, to keep barrels working efficiently, they are also cleaned frequently. To leave burned residue in a gun tube is to eventually invite disaster. I often wonder if this myth is perpetuated by modelers who model both aircraft and armored vehicles. Aircraft skins do collect blowback residue on the aircraft near the ejection chutes, this is caused by the Venturi effect, the amount of ammo expended, and the lubricants used to service the gun (which leak out the same openings) but it’s also often overdone by modelers. The best bet is to look at photos of the real thing (as above) to determine the proper amount of residue/wear to apply.
VR, Russ
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 10:29 AM UTC
An automatic gun firing lots of ammo will heat up but then the whole barrel gets hot. There is no way, given the set of laws of physics currently in use, to heat the end of a barrel enough to cause discolouration without getting even more of the effect closer to the breach.
Not Gonna Happen.

Greasy paws of tankers getting gun lube on the outside while maintaining their weapon is another thing. I suspect that some dark muzzles are actually painted to avoid seeing the grease and smears.

Forward firing guns on an aircraft could probably get the smoke&soot pushed back by the airflow when the aircraft flies and fires.




Painted .... sort of like the 'go-faster' stripes on cars ...


Painted and/or the whitewash has worn off due to cleaning the barrel and/or worn off by putting on and taking off the protective bag or muzzle cover.


As others have said, those worried about getting it absolutely right should dig up photos of the specific vehicle they want to make a true replica of.

Cheers / Robin
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 10:35 AM UTC
Youtube video showing old style cannon loaded with black powder being fired with slow motion sequences.
Almost all of the blast goes forward ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgqIWDPMALk
Kevlar06
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 11:41 AM UTC
What I meant “by the proper amount to apply” was nil, nada, none, or very slight discoloration of paint to simulate wear, grease, lubricant on the paint. In case I wasn’t clear. Even on the inside of the breech, there’s almost no (if any) discoloration on modern vehicles— that’s what bore evaluators are for today. You sure don’t want that stuff blowing back into the crew compartment. For max efficiency and range, almost all residue is burned off in tank ammo. It doesn’t stick to the outside. What’s left exits the barrel at high velocity, the same was true during WWII.
VR, Russ
chauvel
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 12:33 PM UTC
Certainly not a tank gun, but context wise, think of a soldier's service rifle. Mine fires a standard 5.56mm NATO round at about 900-odd m/s. After a heavy day on the mound, the end of the muzzle shows a LITTLE bit of carbon & powder residue, though most of what comes out past the suppressor is gun oil from the barrel & breech assy. The gas plug on the other hand....
As Robin wrote, the flow-on effects of the mechanics & physics of expending a projectile from a weapon haven't changed a whole lot over the years.
ttwells
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 12:59 PM UTC
Guilty as charged... I admit, I do it too add some interest to the subject, knowing its not 100% accurate doesn't bother me. I guess its up to the modeler. I see so much "over weathering", damage etc. on models now-a-days, but if that's how the modeler wants to portray the subject they built then more power to them.
blacksad
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 02:50 PM UTC
There would be carbon deposits on the muzzle break, around the baffles area, but certainly not at the very end of it. The same applies to your personal weapon on the flash hider. I don't know what was the german gun cleaning drill at the time, but I guess they could try to remove the carbon by scraping it and then lay down some oil over it. Over time, the paint exposed to the hot gases will chip and come off between cleaning/firing cycles, which will require to oil the exposed metal more frequently so it doesn't rust. See the picture above representing the muzzle break of an amx-10 rcr. The inside of it is bare metal, so every time it fires it's going to get covered in carbon, and then scrapped off with whatever might do the trick; be it a bbq brush or a flat screwdriver lol. And then lubed so rust doesn't come in. That's what I did on 105mm and do on 155mm.

RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, January 24, 2020 - 10:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Guilty as charged... I admit, I do it too add some interest to the subject, knowing its not 100% accurate doesn't bother me. I guess its up to the modeler. I see so much "over weathering", damage etc. on models now-a-days, but if that's how the modeler wants to portray the subject they built then more power to them.



One or two of my built models has it too. Before I knew better .....
pbennett
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Posted: Saturday, January 25, 2020 - 04:59 AM UTC
Well that question opened a 'can of worms'!
Good to know that so many people are prepared to join in the conversation.

Many thanks,

Paul
ericadeane
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Posted: Saturday, January 25, 2020 - 07:52 AM UTC
Blackened muzzle brakes, heavy chains dangling, fuel barrels weighing +400 lbs, small arms lying everywhere, sandbags and stowage blocking the exhausts, air intakes and lines of periscope vision—

all are modelers’ quirks. They distract my eye from otherwise nice models.
TankSGT
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Posted: Saturday, January 25, 2020 - 09:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Blackened muzzle brakes, heavy chains dangling, fuel barrels weighing +400 lbs, small arms lying everywhere, sandbags and stowage blocking the exhausts, air intakes and lines of periscope vision—

all are modelers’ quirks. They distract my eye from otherwise nice models.



That sounds like all the old Verlindin models in his books.

Tom
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, January 25, 2020 - 11:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Blackened muzzle brakes, heavy chains dangling, fuel barrels weighing +400 lbs, small arms lying everywhere, sandbags and stowage blocking the exhausts, air intakes and lines of periscope vision—

all are modelers’ quirks. They distract my eye from otherwise nice models.



That sounds like all the old Verlindin models in his books.

Tom



Having been a crew member on M113s, M60s and M551s, I’ve always marveled that modelers like to cover those grill doors and engine intakes with all kinds of stuff. That’s a big no-no unless you want to guarantee early engine failure. Glad others here recognize it. We did cover the grill doors on the Sheridan and M60A1 with a tarp, at night, on cold evenings after the engines had been shut down for the evening. But we were under that tarp too trying to stay warm with residual engine heat. That’s the only time I ever saw a grill door or intake covered. I’m sure it was the same during WWII for the most part. A couple of our veterans were tank crewman on Sherman’s during WWII and Pershing’s in Korea, and they reported they’d pile up stuff on the intakes for very short periods only. So that “junk” piled up on models really is about the same as the “powder marks” on muzzles.
VR, Russ
brekinapez
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Posted: Saturday, January 25, 2020 - 05:02 PM UTC
As an air-cooled VW owner, blocking airways was a big no-no for my car, and that mentality carried over when I started modeling again as I knew covering important parts of a vehicle with crap was a surefire way to end up calling AAA for assistance.
jrutman
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Posted: Sunday, January 26, 2020 - 02:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Blackened muzzle brakes, heavy chains dangling, fuel barrels weighing +400 lbs, small arms lying everywhere, sandbags and stowage blocking the exhausts, air intakes and lines of periscope vision—

all are modelers’ quirks. They distract my eye from otherwise nice models.



What HE said ! Yup.
J
PasiAhopelto
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Posted: Sunday, January 26, 2020 - 03:17 AM UTC
What's your opinion of gear that's not tied down or under tarp? I'd assume that's anything that's just lying on top of vehicle would get thrown off as soon as the tank gets off-road.
barkingdigger
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Posted: Sunday, January 26, 2020 - 05:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What's your opinion of gear that's not tied down or under tarp? I'd assume that's anything that's just lying on top of vehicle would get thrown off as soon as the tank gets off-road.



Depends how attached the crew is to the loose gear! If they want to see it at the end of the journey they ought to lash it down if it isn't firmly wedged in place. Gear just piled up loose is just asking to fall off.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, January 26, 2020 - 05:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What's your opinion of gear that's not tied down or under tarp? I'd assume that's anything that's just lying on top of vehicle would get thrown off as soon as the tank gets off-road.



Nobody, at least nobody sane, drives around with loose items lying on a roof rack on their car.

Loose items go under the same classification as "magic tools" (showels and stuff sticking by magic to the side of a vehicle)
TankSGT
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Posted: Sunday, January 26, 2020 - 10:43 AM UTC
The heavy duty canvas tarp was the only thing that we did not tie down. It usually went right behind the mantle. The one thing that always got me was the unsecured weapons laying all over the vehicle. First it was more weapons then any crew would be issued and they were unsecured. Securing your weapon on your person or some where is drummed into the head of every soldier.

Tom