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SS Panzergrenadier Regiment 25 Normandy
yeahwiggie
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Dalarnas, Sweden
Joined: March 24, 2006
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Posted: Friday, January 31, 2020 - 06:13 AM UTC
You really are going to town with this one!!
Superb modelling. You are giving Jerry Rutman a run for his money here!

The additional historical information is very well done too.
chazman
Joined: October 24, 2005
KitMaker: 88 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 31, 2020 - 12:11 PM UTC
What are you making the rifle slings out of?
BravoTwoZero
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California, United States
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Posted: Friday, January 31, 2020 - 12:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You really are going to town with this one!!
Superb modelling. You are giving Jerry Rutman a run for his money here!

The additional historical information is very well done too.



I agree. At first glance, I thought this was a Jerry Rutman post. Very nice research, supporting photos and conversions! Looking forward to seeing these painted up!

-Joseph
Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
Joined: April 13, 2012
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Posted: Tuesday, February 04, 2020 - 05:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

You really are going to town with this one!!
Superb modelling. You are giving Jerry Rutman a run for his money here!

The additional historical information is very well done too.



I agree. At first glance, I thought this was a Jerry Rutman post. Very nice research, supporting photos and conversions! Looking forward to seeing these painted up!

-Joseph





Thanks Ron and Joseph! Thatís means a lot as I am a huge fan of Jerryís work and remember being in awe of it while in college. I honestly credit he and Ron Volstad with a lot of my inspiration. Ron Volstadís artwork inspired me so much and Jerryís conversions showed me that, if it doesnít exist, you can create it with the right patience and effort. Iím all about German Late war uniforms and gear in action poses and use to be discouraged by the lack of figure sets in Zeltbahns. I think it was one of Jerryís figures long ago that he had modified with either lead foil or putty to create coat flaps and that was a lightbulb moment for me. I reasoned that, if I had a torso as a base, I could use foil and putty to cover the limbs.

Iím very excited to get the construction process done on these figs, but Iím also anxious about starting painting. These figures will be in a lot of Oak Leaf A and B, Rauchtarnmuster/blurred edge, Dot Pea Ď44, palm and plane tree and painting is easily my biggest failing in scale modeling. I do t mind airbrushing, but hand painting is extremely difficult for me. Iíve purchased the books, studied the guides and otherís work and Iíll be as ready as Iíll ever be. The big effort is keeping clean water and brushes handy, and keeping the figures covered when drying. For this Iím using ziploc bags to hang over them so dust doesnít settle on them.

Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
Joined: April 13, 2012
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Posted: Tuesday, February 04, 2020 - 05:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What are you making the rifle slings out of?




The rifle slings are made out of AM Works PE german field gear set and Amberís #35A35 set. I highly recommend both. Iím rarely happy with Y-straps that come on Dragon figures and this was a way to upgrade them and add them to items that didnít come with them on.

Edit: Aberís* not Amberís.
chazman
Joined: October 24, 2005
KitMaker: 88 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 04, 2020 - 07:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

What are you making the rifle slings out of?




The rifle slings are made out of AM Works PE german field gear set and Amberís #35A35 set. I highly recommend both. Iím rarely happy with Y-straps that come on Dragon figures and this was a way to upgrade them and add them to do items that didnít come with them on.



Thanks!
Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
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Posted: Saturday, April 25, 2020 - 06:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gret beginnings with the research. It always pays to do that as much as possible.
Nice job with the figure mods and detailing. The Aber set looks good. I have also had good results from the Alliance set. I continue to find new uses for that one.
I like your fig with the zeltbahn and I agree you don't see enough figs using that item. I do wonder why here though? It wasn't raining during that battle and the guys already had camo uniforms?
Another very good resource for this battle are any of the Heimdahl books covering it in extensive detail,or Kurt Meyers' book "Grenadier".
Welcome back to modeling and to my favorite topic.
J




Jerry,

Thank you so much for your comment. I really, really appreciate the references. I have been so busy these last 2-3 months so everyone will have to forgive the late replies and lack of updates. I have purchased "Grenadiers" by Kurt Meyer but, despite my searches online and questioning friends, I haven't been able to find anything related to Heimdahl, if you or anyone could direct me I'd be most appreciative.

As for the zeltbahns, I know you know this, but I'll answer for others and site lurkers who may read this who don't. Afterall, I joined in 2012 in college, but have been lurking in the background on the site since High School. The zeltbahn was the most widely issued garment in the Heer and Wehrmacht. Almost every soldier was issued one and used them for camo as well as a poncho. I know you know all this, and knew it far before I ever did, this is just for anyone else. Anyways, I know that the 15th recon kompanie had an excellence pick of camo items and like all the others within the 12th SS, had access to the Italian camo items the LAH picked up in Italy, as well as HBT dot-pea tunics and trousers and smocks of every kind. There were replacements and some who, whether being transferred, brand new, or due to some shortage, in the unit who did not and I my speculation is banked on that along with my observations and studies of all the photos of the Waffen SS grenadier in Normandy. I will definitely feel comfortable saying this unit likely had far fewer zeltbahns worn this way than grenadiers from other SS divisions in the area, but I feel they were still there.

I have very few pics of 12th SS members wearing them, but I believe they were there. I really wanted to use this diorama to showcase the wide variety of camouflage summer garments of the SS in 1944, and I'm definitely leaning a bit with this.

I see it as one of those opportunities to showcase these incredible garment varieties, kind of like the summer version of the Winter/Spring 1945 Eastern Front Battles. It's similar in that the operations lie within the peak of the camouflage variety usage. It is kind of slippery of me, given how much I have put into the research but I love the zeltbahn so much that I'm willing to roll with it.

Again, I respect your German figure work as the best I've ever seen, it's inspired me for over a decade, I just had to add a lot of that to make sense to any stragglers and observers who may not have.

Thank you very much for your comment!


I know this is an awful awful photo, but it does show a member wearing one. I have another photo somewhere else I'll try to find.

Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
Joined: April 13, 2012
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Posted: Saturday, April 25, 2020 - 08:30 AM UTC
Hello all!
I hope you all are having a wonderful week and you and your families are doing well, given the current pandemic situation. I had originally planned to finish and submiut this diorama in my local IPMS show here at MOSSCON 2020 in Springfield Mo. For reasons your all aware of, MOSSCON, as well as all modelling shwos and contest were cancelled this spring and I'll have to wait until April 2021 to show it.
This definitely gives me more time to work on it and I'll be updating here any time I can! I have not been flying but have been working from home as an online tutor, fiverr and mining bitcoin. I'm lucky in that I'm still getting a full check from work as of now.

The updates are as follows:

I had originally planned on trying one of 2 new Panther Ausf A's with this and from one of 2 Kompanie's I've never built from. Meng and Takom. I chose the Meng Panther Ausf. A and decided to try the zimmerit marketed under theor own brand.

I will say that having been used to building Dragon Panther's my whole life, I felt the Meng Panther A went very fast and I wasn't sure i got out from it what I was going for. I went with Friul tracks because I can't stand the tracks it came with. I don't mind single links and actually love them, but sets in which you have to clean up and install the guide horns drive me crazy!

Every build I do usually involves, individual and or metal tracks, PE detail, and a metal barrel. I found Meng's grills for this Panther also to be a bit underwhelming but was pleased with the plastic barrel and actually decided to use it. The build went together extremely fast but the zimmerit is where I ran into trouble. The zimmerit is a sheet water slide decal but I couldn't get it to properly adhere for the life of me. I had to use Tamiya's extra thin cement and some extra thin CA. The result was a terrible "plastic" type look that bulged and wrinkled in spots and was the opposite of what I was going for. I took 2 days to completely rid the panther of that stuff and was lucky enough to order an excellent "grid" pattern from Wolmar at ATAK just before he was forced to shutdown his operations due to Covid-19. The ATAK went on wonderfully and only required some clean up and putty to properly mesh. The build was done and awaiting paint.

The first Panther attempt with Meng's kit and zimmerit. I am not happy with this and will be continuing Takoms set with a resin zimmerit.

Not only do I not like this zimmerit, I haven't been able to confirm this Diamler-Benz production pattern with 3rd Kompanie's mounts.






When the show the project was planned for was cancelled, and I had completed Mengs Panther Ausf A, I decided to try Takom's Panther A Late since I had the time and never done so. I have to say that I adore this kit.

I have never done a full interior before but I love it. I'm about half way done with construction and begin painting the interior today. The kit does not come with zimmerit and ATAK is closed for now. This was alright since I had no idea which pattern of zimm to use and still had many things to do, like construct a modified Bosch headlight (we will get into that later). I created a post here asking what zimm to use and had some helpful tips and leads and luckily, I was able to find a higher res version of a photo I provided here that finally confirmed a zimmerit pattern for a 3rd Kompanie vehicle! All the other pics I had, you could just barely not make out the pattern. This one, I finally could.


Here is the photo and you can make out the grid pattern with horizontal rake lines! I believe this is a M.A.N. pattern. This tells me at least one Ausf A in 3rd Kompanie was produced at this factory and had this zimm, which is enough confirmation for me to put my creative license to work making another one.



The only other 3rd Kompanie vehicle photo I have, apart from the one above and on my initial post. You can see here that the zimmerit is just out of focus.



Here the photos of the progress on the new Panther I am building for the project. It is Takom's Panther A late production.

A quick side-by-side with the first Panther I built for the diorama (Meng) and the actual one I'm using, and the progress on it.(Takom)



Progress on the Takom Panther A late hull and wheels.


A view pf the interior. Please note that a lot of components are missing because I've removed them to begin painting the interior today.






cheyenne
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Saturday, April 25, 2020 - 09:52 PM UTC
Beautiful work Nate .
A lot of my reading on the Zeltbhan shows hundreds of photos of it being worn not in the rain but for its camo properties . Notice in the photos the uniforms under the Zeltbhan , solid color .
I've also read that the Zeltbhan [ most likely after being torn or ripped ] was many times cut up for helmut covers and other camo uses .
Authors of articles , books etc. use period photos with captions to fit their narrative not actually where or when the photo was taken .
This photo has been captioned 99% of the time as 12 ss Normandy . I've only read one caption reading it as 116th panzer div.



These have been captioned as 12th ss but also as many other areas and service branches . First one looks more like a poncho than a Zeltbhan .





I'm a little leery on the caption of 12ss on this one . The guy attending to the tankers ear looks like he's wearing some kind of poncho or Italian smock rather than a Zeltbhan .

jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2020 - 03:05 AM UTC
First and third are 21st PzDiv. Second one is Hungary and probably LAH. The last one is indeed 12SS.
J
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2020 - 03:07 AM UTC
Both the Panthers look great. Nice to see you have taken your down time and used it wisely,
J
marcb
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Overijssel, Netherlands
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Posted: Monday, April 27, 2020 - 10:05 AM UTC
First and third are indeed 21 PD. Note the splinter pattern camo. Last pic is 1SS. 12SS had turret numbers from xx5 to xx9.
Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
Joined: April 13, 2012
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Posted: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 - 09:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Beautiful work Nate .
A lot of my reading on the Zeltbhan shows hundreds of photos of it being worn not in the rain but for its camo properties . Notice in the photos the uniforms under the Zeltbhan , solid color .
I've also read that the Zeltbhan [ most likely after being torn or ripped ] was many times cut up for helmut covers and other camo uses .
Authors of articles , books etc. use period photos with captions to fit their narrative not actually where or when the photo was taken .
This photo has been captioned 99% of the time as 12 ss Normandy . I've only read one caption reading it as 116th panzer div.



These have been captioned as 12th ss but also as many other areas and service branches . First one looks more like a poncho than a Zeltbhan .





I'm a little leery on the caption of 12ss on this one . The guy attending to the tankers ear looks like he's wearing some kind of poncho or Italian smock rather than a Zeltbhan .






Hey Cheyenne!

Thank you for the reply and images. As Marc and Jerry pointed out, these are indeed zeltbahns and some of my favorite photos of all time, as they show my favorite unit; Panzergrenadier Regiment 125 of the 21st Panzer Division. The first and 3rd anyway.

The first and third are indeed Wehrmacht and are actually the same grenadier. The giveaway is the splinter pattern and his massive flare gun holster that's just barely visible in the 1st.

The second photo, while definitely SS, is from 1940 in the invasion of Holland. I actually have the series of photos with these guys and they're part of a Pak 36 crew in the 2nd SS Regiment Germania. This was back when the 2nd SS wasn't a Panzergrenadier or SS Panzer Division, but was still part of the SS-VT or SS-VerfŁgungs-Division.

The 4th, I genuinely thought was the 12th SS from the grenadiers and the Panzer IV lettering, but Marc cleared that up with the turret numbers belonging to LAH. He'd definitely know.

One last thing, just for reference; The fourth pic isn't actually an SS zeltbahn but an "M42" cut SS smock. The give away here is the giant foliage loops on the shoulder. I've learned to never say "never" in this world, but if there is a zeltbahn with foliage loops, I've never seen one.

Thank you so much for the reply, everything is helpful and I love hearing from everyone.
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
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Posted: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 - 11:55 AM UTC
Check out Radu productions. He has a whole new line of running HJ guys either out or about to be released. High quality.
J
Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 - 12:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Check out Radu productions. He has a whole new line of running HJ guys either out or about to be released. High quality.
J



Thatís sounds wonderful Jerry, exactly why Iím into. Do you have a link by chance? Iíve googled Radu and havenít come up with anything. I do have a set of running 12th SS figs from Rado, they are some of the best figures Iíve ever seen and Iíve picked up a few to modify for this very project. Perhaps thatís what you were referring to.
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
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Posted: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 - 01:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Check out Radu productions. He has a whole new line of running HJ guys either out or about to be released. High quality.
J



Thatís sounds wonderful Jerry, exactly why Iím into. Do you have a link by chance? Iíve googled Radu and havenít come up with anything. I do have a set of running 12th SS figs from Rado, they are some of the best figures Iíve ever seen and Iíve picked up a few to modify for this very project. Perhaps thatís what you were referring to.



Yep,those are the ones,
J
marcb
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Overijssel, Netherlands
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Posted: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 - 09:21 PM UTC
http://radominiatures.com/en/
Dioramartin
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New South Wales, Australia
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Posted: Wednesday, April 29, 2020 - 02:56 AM UTC
Thatís one cool Takom cat, looking forward to seeing the insides all installed/painted
Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2020 - 02:43 PM UTC
Disaster has struck!

I've been using Cavalier zimmerit sheets that I was lucky enough to find on ebay for my Takom Panther A late build.

I accidentally knocked over my Tamiya extra thin cement!!

I was able to move most the parts out of the way in time but the turret roof got hit!

It's got a nasty glue stain now! Is this ruined? What would you guys do?







As far as updates, here's how the zimmerit is coming along.















Dioramartin
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New South Wales, Australia
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2020 - 04:17 PM UTC
Firstly I love your work Nate, and your devotion to accuracy/veracity. Regarding your Great Cement Disaster of 2020 a couple of observations: 1) Always anchor cement pots down with a big blob of BluTac or whatever the US equivalent is 2) If this is Panther 326 then it would appear the ghost of Eismann has intervened - his horrible fate you described about half way down page 1
ahandykindaguy
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2020 - 05:07 PM UTC
[quote]Disaster has struck!

I've been using Cavalier zimmerit sheets that I was lucky enough to find on ebay for my Takom Panther A late build.

I accidentally knocked over my Tamiya extra thin cement!!

I was able to move most the parts out of the way in time but the turret roof got hit!

It's got a nasty glue stain now! Is this ruined? What would you guys do?




I would try letting it set up, then sanding it back down smooth. From my vantage point it doesnít look like any of the glue glooped onto any high points, bobs, or doohickeys that would need replacing.

Good luck with your solution
Golikell
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Noord-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2020 - 06:51 PM UTC
I would do the same: let dry, sand down and putty if needed... Seems that it could be worse...
marcb
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Overijssel, Netherlands
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2020 - 10:57 PM UTC
The only risk area is the bend in the roof plate.
If that looks off, after sanding, cover it with a tarp, map, etc.
Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
Joined: April 13, 2012
KitMaker: 393 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 09:00 AM UTC
UPDATE:

Excellent News; I was able to, sort of, fix the glue stained cause by the spilled Tamiya Extra Thin Cement. Lessons were learned. lol.

I've also progressed on nearly all the figures to where they're ready for painting. ALl but a few, there are some that needs some addition putty filling work with Vallejo and Miliput, some sanding and PE work in terms of helmet straps, slings, and a few gear straps. BTW, Jerry, these are the figures from RADO you referenced. This is one of the best figure sets on the market and I100% recommend them, I did modify my NCO slightly with new arms so that hes holding his MP40 instead of adjusting his helmet.

Here's the fixed turret, updated figures and some photos of the 1st Panther (Meng's), I completed before deciding on building TAKOM's. I've also included som eupdates on the TOKOM Panther's zimmerit.

Turret Fix I went at it with a very sharp x-acto knife, working it on it's side to shave the thinnest of layers off. I did my best not to gouge or remove to much. I then used fine grade sand sticks to even it out. The texture does not match the reest of the turret roof, I'm wondering if that Mr. Surfacer would help this? I've never used it.




I may try Mr. Surfacer to see if I can get the textures to mathc, I may forget it and see how it turns out. I'm just very glad it didn't eat into and ruin the turret roof!


Quoted Text

Check out Radu productions. He has a whole new line of running HJ guys either out or about to be released. High quality.
J




Rados excellent figures, slightly modified. I left the grenadier with the k98k stock because he's remarkable. That's a perfect reload posture and detail while running and the stripper clip detail is fantastic.

Machine gunner and casualty. The gunner is made from 4 or 5 different Dragon kits and the casualty is stock, except I replaced his tall early war jackboots which were less common in 44 with the M43 ankle boot and gaiters.





My zeltbahn figures running. Built using 5 different figure sets and lots of putty and sanding.


I love these figures and am really proud of them. I will be making duplicates in the future to use for Wehrmacht Heer and Luftwaffe Ground Units, it just sucks I have to buy all those figure sets again to get the parts I need.
















These figures are also built using parts from 4 different figure sets.



I'm also prouod of these. I worked really hard on their poses. I'm a big believer of realistic and subtle action animation. The smallest tweaks and angles can covey so much movement and, likewise, another adjustment can convey far too much action and appear cartoonish or toy-like.

My 3rd Zeltbahn figure. He will be in cover behind either the lineman's cottage or a stone wall. If i go with a stone wall, it will be comlete guess work as to authenticity, since I have no photos of the actual property it was on. I would pu thim behind the Panther, but the Panther will be in reverse, slowly retreating backward after witnessing 7 of it's brothers taken out by 6lb, 75mm and 17lb Canadian Shermans.





I like him, I'm not totally sold on his head. I use Live Resin helmets but instead of an Alpine or Hornedt head, I chose to keep the stock one...for now. I want to see how it looks with base flesh tone first.



Here are the updated photos of the TAKOM Panther,(the one I'm actually using in the diorama), with the zimmerit applied.





















Finally, for those interested, here are the photos of the nearly completed(construction) MENG Panther A mid-late. I decided against this one for the project when I was nearly done with contrustion. I discovered that I couldnt' verify the Diamler style grid zimmerit with 3rd Kompanie's mounts, and I something just didn't feel right about using it as the one of the focal points of the dio. It's hard to explain, I'm not sure even I understand why, but I had to give TAKOM's a shot. I'm not sure what I'll end up doing with this one, but I know I will be testing my AK dunkelgelb modulation set, MIG AMMO dunkelgelb Aus DG II and III, oil filters, washes and pighments on it. I know it's going to be a test subject for those, and that I will build a bunch of foliage using wire and leaf punches with PE foliage to create a Panther A covered in foliage, like the ones we see in films. The 12th SS's didn't have that enormous amount of foliage and it wouldnt feel right covereing it with all that anyway, but this one I can. I may mark it as one of the 2nd Panzer Divisions, or one that fought deep in the Bocage country or St. Lo where very heavy foliage was used on Panthers. If anyone knows which units or has references, please let me know, because I wan this to be one leafy covered kitty. The TAKOM/ diorama Panther will be clean, with nearly factory new dunkelgelb modulated with olivgrun or reseda grun stripe-blotches and rotbraun or schocolatbraun blotches.














I'm not sure what I'll end up doing with this one, but I know I will be testing my AK dunkelgelb modulation set, MIG AMMO dunkelgelb Aus DG II and III, oil filters, washes and pigments on it. I know it's going to be a test subject for those, and that I will build a bunch of foliage using wire and leaf punches with PE foliage to create a Panther A covered in foliage, like the ones we see in films.

The 12th SS's didn't have an enormous amount of foliage on their panzers from what I've seen from film and photographs from early June, and it wouldn't feel right working so hard on the zimm and modulation just to cover it with a variety of branches and leaves. This MENG Panther A, I can and will. I may mark it as one of the 2nd Panzer Divisions, or one that fought deep in the Bocage country or St. Lo where very heavy foliage was used on Panthers.

If anyone knows which units or has references, please let me know, because I want this to be one leafy covered kitty. If you know which units absolutely covered their panzers in branches, leaves and foliage, I'd love to hear about it.

The TAKOM/ diorama Panther will be clean, with nearly factory new dunkelgelb modulated with olivgrun or reseda grun stripe-blotches and rotbraun or schocolatbraun blotches.


That's all for today. It's abeautiful Mother's day, the lawn is mowed, the bills are paid, the house is clean, and I have a new Oculus Rift S Virtual Reality Headset for my computer that I'm going to try out in WW2 air combat. The game is IL-2 Sturmovik: Operation Bodenplatte. I love their sims. Have a great day everyone!






msteenstra
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Missouri, United States
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 09:29 AM UTC
Very nice work! Excellent job on the figures. Would love to see this in person one day! Maybe the next MOSS CON.