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Armor/AFV
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20 mm flakvierling question
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 354 posts
AeroScale: 2 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 12:00 PM UTC
Hello all,

I am almost done construction of the AFV club flakvierling and had a question before the last few bits come together:

- Steps 4 and 5 of the manual suggest that there are options for the parts near the gun sight but they do not specify which part should be used for what 'variant', if there is such a thing.

Anyone have any ideas as to the correct parts to be used for this kit? Does it depend on whether one is making it as an AA gun or for ground targets? My apologies for the rather vague question and parts descriptions, I don't know what these parts would be called.
panzerbob01
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Louisiana, United States
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 2,857 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 02:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hello all,

I am almost done construction of the AFV club flakvierling and had a question before the last few bits come together:

- Steps 4 and 5 of the manual suggest that there are options for the parts near the gun sight but they do not specify which part should be used for what 'variant', if there is such a thing.

Anyone have any ideas as to the correct parts to be used for this kit? Does it depend on whether one is making it as an AA gun or for ground targets? My apologies for the rather vague question and parts descriptions, I don't know what these parts would be called.



KruppC.;

I'm not familiar with the specific kit you have, so some of my noise may just be exactly that.

Start with; the FlaKvierling-38 was created specifically for AA use - it was a weapon feared by ground-attack pilots for its high volume of fire and its reasonable accuracy at modest ranges. It was deployed both as a towed weapon and mounted on various carriers (the most-specific "factory" types being armored half-tracks and the FlaKpanzer IV Wirbelwind, and seen on various armored trains, including Hitler's personal rail car, as well as on bunkers, etc.).

The FlaKvierling mostly utilized the same gun-sights as issued for the standard FlaK-38 gun, as, aside from being 4 FlaK-38 guns mounted together, it had no greater range than did its original members. There were at least 3 different sight devices issued for and used on the FlaK-38 between 1938 and 1945, so probably FlaKvierlings saw at least 2 of these, depending on item availability.

That said, it was certainly used opportunistically as a ground-effect weapon. But always set up sight-wise as an AA weapon.

My guess as to your parts question is that the kit may include options for the sights to be used - any of which options would be reasonably "legit". There may also be option provided for having NO SIGHT mounted - appropriate for a gun in trail or being towed. Gunsights were often removed for road-march towing, and / or they were covered with a tailored canvas hood (or lacking that item, perhaps with a piece of poncho or...).

Cheers! Bob
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 354 posts
AeroScale: 2 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 03:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hello all,

I am almost done construction of the AFV club flakvierling and had a question before the last few bits come together:

- Steps 4 and 5 of the manual suggest that there are options for the parts near the gun sight but they do not specify which part should be used for what 'variant', if there is such a thing.

Anyone have any ideas as to the correct parts to be used for this kit? Does it depend on whether one is making it as an AA gun or for ground targets? My apologies for the rather vague question and parts descriptions, I don't know what these parts would be called.



KruppC.;

I'm not familiar with the specific kit you have, so some of my noise may just be exactly that.

Start with; the FlaKvierling-38 was created specifically for AA use - it was a weapon feared by ground-attack pilots for its high volume of fire and its reasonable accuracy at modest ranges. It was deployed both as a towed weapon and mounted on various carriers (the most-specific "factory" types being armored half-tracks and the FlaKpanzer IV Wirbelwind, and seen on various armored trains, including Hitler's personal rail car, as well as on bunkers, etc.).

The FlaKvierling mostly utilized the same gun-sights as issued for the standard FlaK-38 gun, as, aside from being 4 FlaK-38 guns mounted together, it had no greater range than did its original members. There were at least 3 different sight devices issued for and used on the FlaK-38 between 1938 and 1945, so probably FlaKvierlings saw at least 2 of these, depending on item availability.

That said, it was certainly used opportunistically as a ground-effect weapon. But always set up sight-wise as an AA weapon.

My guess as to your parts question is that the kit may include options for the sights to be used - any of which options would be reasonably "legit". There may also be option provided for having NO SIGHT mounted - appropriate for a gun in trail or being towed. Gunsights were often removed for road-march towing, and / or they were covered with a tailored canvas hood (or lacking that item, perhaps with a piece of poncho or...).

Cheers! Bob



Thank you for the thorough explanation, Bob! I searched more online and couldn’t find any sort of reference pertaining to the different parts they mention. The parts option in the kit refers to the arm which holds the gun sight. The manual itself basically gives painting instructions for a dunkelgelb and a dunkelgrau version but no other specifics.

Another possibility is that all variants with all parts combinations existed so it makes no difference what’s selected.
jon_a_its
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: April 29, 2004
KitMaker: 1,255 posts
AeroScale: 12 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 08:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hello all,

I am almost done construction of the AFV club flakvierling and had a question before the last few bits come together:

- Steps 4 and 5 of the manual suggest that there are options for the parts near the gun sight but they do not specify which part should be used for what 'variant', if there is such a thing.

Anyone have any ideas as to the correct parts to be used for this kit? Does it depend on whether one is making it as an AA gun or for ground targets? My apologies for the rather vague question and parts descriptions, I don't know what these parts would be called.



KruppC.;

I'm not familiar with the specific kit you have, so some of my noise may just be exactly that.

Start with; the FlaKvierling-38 was created specifically for AA use - it was a weapon feared by ground-attack pilots for its high volume of fire and its reasonable accuracy at modest ranges. It was deployed both as a towed weapon and mounted on various carriers (the most-specific "factory" types being armored half-tracks and the FlaKpanzer IV Wirbelwind, and seen on various armored trains, including Hitler's personal rail car, as well as on bunkers, etc.).

The FlaKvierling mostly utilized the same gun-sights as issued for the standard FlaK-38 gun, as, aside from being 4 FlaK-38 guns mounted together, it had no greater range than did its original members. There were at least 3 different sight devices issued for and used on the FlaK-38 between 1938 and 1945, so probably FlaKvierlings saw at least 2 of these, depending on item availability.

That said, it was certainly used opportunistically as a ground-effect weapon. But always set up sight-wise as an AA weapon.

My guess as to your parts question is that the kit may include options for the sights to be used - any of which options would be reasonably "legit". There may also be option provided for having NO SIGHT mounted - appropriate for a gun in trail or being towed. Gunsights were often removed for road-march towing, and / or they were covered with a tailored canvas hood (or lacking that item, perhaps with a piece of poncho or...).

Cheers! Bob



Thank you for the thorough explanation, Bob! I searched more online and couldn’t find any sort of reference pertaining to the different parts they mention. The parts option in the kit refers to the arm which holds the gun sight. The manual itself basically gives painting instructions for a dunkelgelb and a dunkelgrau version but no other specifics.

Another possibility is that all variants with all parts combinations existed so it makes no difference what’s selected.



I built the Tamiya version last errr millennium
IF I remember correctly, it had options for the 'arm' holding the sight for vertical or horizontal deployment, as the position would be different. Or are they different types of sight?
Kaktusas
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Joined: April 12, 2017
KitMaker: 196 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 09:13 PM UTC
Got to check reference images, but my initial observations are:
Part A47 should be used with different optical sight - Visierkopf 38/40. A46 part is blanked off, so its ok with sight included in the kit. A47 is control panel of Flakvisier 38/40.
Not sure yet on step 4, got to check pictures. If you will do search on gun sights, you will definitely find what type of elevation mechanism was used with given gunsight.

Edit:
About step 4. Check walk around of Saumur flakvierling:
http://svsm.org/gallery/20mm_flak38_sau
this gun has control panel blanked off, and elevation mechanism seems to be without A8 and A7 kit parts. Not sure if elevation wheels are original on this gun tho.

Hope this helps to get you on the tracks.

Bonaparte84
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 297 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 10:12 PM UTC
Hi gents,
i did a quick research. The Flakvierling definitely was designed to be used on ground targets as well, though I don't know to which extent this happened. I suppose it would happen as a stop gap measure to increase fire volume or in case of accute threat to the aa unit.


In any case, specific optics were issued for the ground combat role/situation. I quote from the German wikipedia-entry:

"Gun depression ranged from −10° to up to +100°. The crew consisted of seven men. At its disposal were different aiming optics, namely: the Flakvisier 40, the Linealvisier 21, the Schwebekreisvisier 30/38 and the Erdzielfernrohr 3×8 for ground combat use."

"Erdzielfernrohr" translates into "ground target optics". You can find more info on the looks of said ground combat optics on this page (search for "3x8 Optical Ground Sight"):

http://www.questmasters.us/2cm_FLAK38.html

Hope that helps!
Kaktusas
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Joined: April 12, 2017
KitMaker: 196 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 10:23 PM UTC
One more walk around, which shows same features like in my previous posts (A46 blanking part plus "simplified" elevation mechanism):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMdgJ8G3gls

Schwebekreisvisier 30/38 is included with the kit. Other sights might be used as well, but Flakvisier 38/40 cannot be used without control electronics - A47 part.
Kaktusas
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Joined: April 12, 2017
KitMaker: 196 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 10:32 PM UTC
And finally, few pictures of different setup:
http://www.maquetland.com/article-phototheque/2625-canon-anti-aerien-flakvierling-38-trieste
Gun sight electronics panel, plus additional features on elevation mechanism. So if you add control panel, you must ad those to elevation mechanism too. Not sure of their function (aint got manual or "right" book), but so far these are present on guns with control panel.
panzerbob01
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Louisiana, United States
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 2,857 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, January 21, 2019 - 07:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi gents,
i did a quick research. The Flakvierling definitely was designed to be used on ground targets as well, though I don't know to which extent this happened. I suppose it would happen as a stop gap measure to increase fire volume or in case of accute threat to the aa unit.


In any case, specific optics were issued for the ground combat role/situation. I quote from the German wikipedia-entry:

"Gun depression ranged from −10° to up to +100°. The crew consisted of seven men. At its disposal were different aiming optics, namely: the Flakvisier 40, the Linealvisier 21, the Schwebekreisvisier 30/38 and the Erdzielfernrohr 3×8 for ground combat use."

"Erdzielfernrohr" translates into "ground target optics". You can find more info on the looks of said ground combat optics on this page (search for "3x8 Optical Ground Sight"):

http://www.questmasters.us/2cm_FLAK38.html

Hope that helps!



The rather clumsy 3300 lb towed FlaKvierling-38 was created to address the clear problem of its single - mount 2cm FlaK-38 parent as an AA weapon - not enough rate-of-fire to effectively counter the increasingly fast ground-attack aircraft of early WWII. Like about every "AA" gun built, it was used opportunistically as a ground weapon. But, just like the famous FlaK 36/37 88mm gun, and our 105mm howitzer, NOT actually designed for use in for the ground role. The "Erdzielfernrohr" telescopic sight was provided to improve the AA gun's versatility and effectiveness when it did get used in ground roles. The Germans were extremely adaptive in their use of equipment and weapons...

The "Erdzielfernrohr" telescope is the small tube one sees on or in virtually every FlaK-38 and FlaKvierling kit made in the past 40 years or so. It mounted onto the side of all standard AA sight-mounts. It was useless as an AA sight, but enabled the gunner to closely target stationary or slow-moving at ground level. But provision of this telescope sight does not mean that the weapon system or its mount were actually designed or intended as a ground weapon. Rather, it shows the often-seen versatility folks build into many weapons.

Expensive towed FlaKvierlings were certainly used to real effect on some occasions as close-in ground weapons, but being clumsy and heavy and needing a large crew, certainly were NOT designed nor intended to be front-line ground weapons. They were, however, used thusly whenever the circumstances allowed or required them to be!

Cheers! Bob
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 354 posts
AeroScale: 2 posts
Posted: Monday, January 21, 2019 - 07:33 AM UTC
Thank you all for the replies, I would not have been able to understand this without your help!

To summarize what I have understood (please correct me if I have misunderstood): Parts A7, A8, and A47 go together if the sight were the "2cm FLAK 38 Schwebekreisviser 38 Optical Sight" (the one that looks like a sniper scope). However, the sight provided in this kit is is a different one, so the photo-etch parts should be used together with part A46.

In essence, if one cares about accuracy, parts A7, A8, and A47 do not go with this kit. Please correct if this is wrong.
Kaktusas
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Joined: April 12, 2017
KitMaker: 196 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, January 21, 2019 - 06:55 PM UTC
You got most of the things right. A7, A8 and A47 go together. Sight that comes with this kit is Schwebekreisvisier 30/38:

Schwebekreisviser 38 is part of it, and looks like sniper scope. Both of these sights hang one same mount. Now A7,A8 and A47 parts are needed for diferent type of sight - Flakvisier 38/40:

It also has same "sniper scope" attached to Visierkopf 38/40, which is reflector sight.
So you can probably add all the extra details A7,A8 and A47 and pretend they replaced sight as it was damaged, this would work. But you cant put fancy reflector sight without those extras, as this would not work
Btw i found the same/similar information on flak38 review @ PMMS https://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/dragon/dr6546.html
Same situation with sights, only elevation mechanism is different in single barrel flak.



Quoted Text

Thank you all for the replies, I would not have been able to understand this without your help!

To summarize what I have understood (please correct me if I have misunderstood): Parts A7, A8, and A47 go together if the sight were the "2cm FLAK 38 Schwebekreisviser 38 Optical Sight" (the one that looks like a sniper scope). However, the sight provided in this kit is is a different one, so the photo-etch parts should be used together with part A46.

In essence, if one cares about accuracy, parts A7, A8, and A47 do not go with this kit. Please correct if this is wrong.


PS images are not mine, found them on google image search, and used for reference only.
Bonaparte84
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 297 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, January 21, 2019 - 09:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text


The rather clumsy 3300 lb towed FlaKvierling-38 was created to address the clear problem of its single - mount 2cm FlaK-38 parent as an AA weapon - not enough rate-of-fire to effectively counter the increasingly fast ground-attack aircraft of early WWII. Like about every "AA" gun built, it was used opportunistically as a ground weapon. But, just like the famous FlaK 36/37 88mm gun, and our 105mm howitzer, NOT actually designed for use in for the ground role. The "Erdzielfernrohr" telescopic sight was provided to improve the AA gun's versatility and effectiveness when it did get used in ground roles. The Germans were extremely adaptive in their use of equipment and weapons...

The "Erdzielfernrohr" telescope is the small tube one sees on or in virtually every FlaK-38 and FlaKvierling kit made in the past 40 years or so. It mounted onto the side of all standard AA sight-mounts. It was useless as an AA sight, but enabled the gunner to closely target stationary or slow-moving at ground level. But provision of this telescope sight does not mean that the weapon system or its mount were actually designed or intended as a ground weapon. Rather, it shows the often-seen versatility folks build into many weapons.

Expensive towed FlaKvierlings were certainly used to real effect on some occasions as close-in ground weapons, but being clumsy and heavy and needing a large crew, certainly were NOT designed nor intended to be front-line ground weapons. They were, however, used thusly whenever the circumstances allowed or required them to be!

Cheers! Bob



Pardon my poor choice of words! I didn't mean to say that the gun was actually designed for ground combat, but that such use was anticipated and therefore an aiming device added specifically to that end.
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 354 posts
AeroScale: 2 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 24, 2019 - 01:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You got most of the things right. A7, A8 and A47 go together. Sight that comes with this kit is Schwebekreisvisier 30/38:

Schwebekreisviser 38 is part of it, and looks like sniper scope. Both of these sights hang one same mount. Now A7,A8 and A47 parts are needed for diferent type of sight - Flakvisier 38/40:

It also has same "sniper scope" attached to Visierkopf 38/40, which is reflector sight.
So you can probably add all the extra details A7,A8 and A47 and pretend they replaced sight as it was damaged, this would work. But you cant put fancy reflector sight without those extras, as this would not work
Btw i found the same/similar information on flak38 review @ PMMS https://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/dragon/dr6546.html
Same situation with sights, only elevation mechanism is different in single barrel flak.



Quoted Text

Thank you all for the replies, I would not have been able to understand this without your help!

To summarize what I have understood (please correct me if I have misunderstood): Parts A7, A8, and A47 go together if the sight were the "2cm FLAK 38 Schwebekreisviser 38 Optical Sight" (the one that looks like a sniper scope). However, the sight provided in this kit is is a different one, so the photo-etch parts should be used together with part A46.

In essence, if one cares about accuracy, parts A7, A8, and A47 do not go with this kit. Please correct if this is wrong.


PS images are not mine, found them on google image search, and used for reference only.



That made perfect sense. I chose to follow your advice, regarding which combinations existed, and omit parts A7 and A8 and I used A46 instead, for as much authenticity as possible.

I really appreciate everyone’s help and input with this question!