login   |    register
Armor/AFV: Canadian Armor
Discuss all types of Canadian Armor of all eras.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Churchill MK III at Dieppe
sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 12:42 PM UTC
Well thought I would do this up while waiting on another model to show up.

Cheers















tankmodeler
#417
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
AeroScale: 1 posts
Posted: Friday, July 13, 2018 - 04:35 AM UTC
Nice rust job. What paints and method are you using?
sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Friday, July 13, 2018 - 12:51 PM UTC
Thanks Paul,used a spray of Tamiya Dark brown ,followed by a coat of Monroe pigments. Just playing around with the colors, I have a set of 5 rust colors from them.

http://monroemodels.us/aim.weathering.htm

But first I started with a coat of Sophisticated Finishes Rust, which was the base coat after the painting the model color.

http://www.misterart.com/crafts/decorative-painting/faux-finishing/triangle-coatings-sophisticated-finishes-metallic-surfacers.html

Cheers
Vicious
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Queensland, Australia
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
AeroScale: 75 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2018 - 10:47 AM UTC
WoW...The traks are spot-on!
Das_Abteilung
_VISITCOMMUNITY
United Kingdom
Joined: August 31, 2010
KitMaker: 365 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 15, 2018 - 11:35 AM UTC
Except that being high-manganese steel like all British tracks they didn't wear to a graphite or steel colour and they rarely displayed orange rust.

Worn areas of manganese steel tracks are a goldy-brown metallic colour that is very hard to represent accurately. But it is neither silvery nor graphite.

Oxidation gave a grey-brown surface patina. The manganese content inhibited rust formation - for decades.

If this vehicle is one that ended up stuck on the pebble beach, I wonder if the whole of the track link surface would have been polished by the action of the pebbles, particularly if the tank had bellied and tried to free itself. It would have taken weeks or months for those worn areas to develop an oxidised patina.
redcap
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: November 06, 2005
KitMaker: 753 posts
AeroScale: 311 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 15, 2018 - 12:59 PM UTC
Really nice work so far.

Gary
chris1
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: October 25, 2005
KitMaker: 949 posts
AeroScale: 493 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 15, 2018 - 04:08 PM UTC
Hi Jeff,
Please tell me this is 1/35th? If it's 1/72nd WOW.


Chris
sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Monday, July 16, 2018 - 01:16 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Except that being high-manganese steel like all British tracks they didn't wear to a graphite or steel color and they rarely displayed orange rust.

Worn areas of manganese steel tracks are a goldy-brown metallic color that is very hard to represent accurately. But it is neither silvery nor graphite.

Oxidation gave a grey-brown surface patina. The manganese content inhibited rust formation - for decades.

If this vehicle is one that ended up stuck on the pebble beach, I wonder if the whole of the track link surface would have been polished by the action of the pebbles, particularly if the tank had bellied and tried to free itself. It would have taken weeks or months for those worn areas to develop an oxidized patina.



All good replies, Yep 1/35 scale, my first for a Canadian tank, ever,and what it comes down to, Dieppe should never of happened, foolish move which gained squat , but a loss of over 2000 Canadian POW's, and another close to 1000 killed.

Good deal on the tracks as what I have seen , and as I have a British friend that lives in Kent, said all is well.

And I have had magnesium lawn mowers that did rust.

As to salt water I worked on a Yacht my bosses 45 Foot Chris Craft , way back in 1973,and again his 53 foot Chris craft in 1974,and steel rusts just looking at salt, unless our salt here is stronger then European salt there in France or the UK, but hey could be, and I am finished on that subject.

So with that a pic for your book.



A few more pics.





Need to do more work on the upper exhaust ,but latter down the road.

Cheers

Jeff
Das_Abteilung
_VISITCOMMUNITY
United Kingdom
Joined: August 31, 2010
KitMaker: 365 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 - 06:51 AM UTC
The Churchill picture posted above illustrates my point. The wear points on the spuds show the brownish shade I mentioned: a bit like bronze but not quite. The main oxidation (call it rust if you like) visible on most of the links is the grey-brown colour I mentioned.

Yes, there are some small spots of orange rust here and there. But that's after, what, 70 years - even allowing for years of indoor storage? Those could be the result of alloy imperfections or surface contamination by an aggressive corroding agent such as salt or even inappropriate cleaning agents.

For non-lubricated parts the only safe cleaning agent on museum military vehicles is distilled water. The effect of other agents is not properly understood.

Here's a picture of a Tortoise track for comparison. I don't have any of my own photos of any Churchill track.
tankmodeler
#417
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
AeroScale: 1 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 - 06:42 AM UTC
This is all very dependant on _exactly_ what alloy is being discussed.

The manganese steel tracks on the Canadian Mk VI Valentine at Camp Borden, ON, is a matte grey. No brown/bronze tinges at all. Simple plain mid grey. Never painted, no streaking of corrosion, nothing and it sat outside for over 60 years.

Small variations in the alloy composition of manganese steel from various foundries can easily produce significant variation s in appearance (of no importance at the time) and of corrosion (of not a whole lot of importance at the time) and wear rates (of highest importance at the time.

Both sides of this discussion can be quite correct and there is no way of telling which would be more representative of tracks at the time without numerous, period, colour-balanced photos. Which we're never going to get.

What we do know is that tracks that did rust dis so very soon after the vehicle halted, especially in moist climates and we also know that within a few hundred meters of motion, surface rust was essentially all gone from any contact surfaces, including crevasses for tracks running over anything other than hard finished roads.

Other than that, let photos be your best guide and cut "the other guy" some slack for his interpretations.

Paul
sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 19, 2018 - 01:35 PM UTC
Nice read there Paul.
I forgot about Boresight,as never have done a Canadian tank.
Going to be Betty.
Will look deeper into the tracks.
No pics in color of Dieppe.

sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 21, 2018 - 12:09 PM UTC
A few more pics.

Started the weathering which will not be much.









Cheers


Jeff
sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Monday, July 30, 2018 - 10:35 AM UTC
A little more.












Cheers

Jeff
maartenboersma
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: October 10, 2010
KitMaker: 764 posts
AeroScale: 2 posts
Posted: Monday, July 30, 2018 - 11:34 AM UTC
Beautiful and clean build so far
sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 - 10:49 AM UTC
Thanks Maarten.

Well a flat coat.

Fixed that light, fingers









SgtRam
Staff MemberEditor-at-Large
AEROSCALE
#197
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 06, 2011
KitMaker: 3,971 posts
AeroScale: 511 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 - 01:07 PM UTC
Jeff

That is coming along great, excellent job. Just a note, the track stowed on the fender would not have the pads shiny, they would be corroded.

Kevin
sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 01:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Jeff

That is coming along great, excellent job. Just a note, the track stowed on the fender would not have the pads shiny, they would be corroded.

Kevin



Thanks and consider it done.
sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 08:27 AM UTC
Rusty enough, too much?





Turret not popped on yet as once no way to get it back off.



GTDeath13
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Attica, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: June 12, 2015
KitMaker: 921 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 09:02 AM UTC
This is looking great. Especially the rust job on the tracks and the exhaust, really eye catching.

Perhaps you should add some variation to the rust tones on the spare tracks, so as not to look painted. A slightly different color pigment or wash, slightly darker to simulate old rust.
sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 10:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This is looking great. Especially the rust job on the tracks and the exhaust, really eye catching.

Perhaps you should add some variation to the rust tones on the spare tracks, so as not to look painted. A slightly different color pigment or wash, slightly darker to simulate old rust.



Good idea will get on that tomorrow , thanks for that Nikos.

Actually Pigments applied with water , and a coat of Vallejo flat coat.


Might and I will do the tracks slightly different also.
GTDeath13
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Attica, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: June 12, 2015
KitMaker: 921 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 11:36 AM UTC
May I suggest something more. Wet the surface of the spare tracks with turpentine or enamel thinner, then take some pigments with your brush and stroke in on the surface. Do not move horizontaly, stroke the brush with the pigment. This will give it a more uneven look. Apply thinner only where you want your pigments to stick.
sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 11:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

May I suggest something more. Wet the surface of the spare tracks with turpentine or enamel thinner, then take some pigments with your brush and stroke in on the surface. Do not move horizontally, stroke the brush with the pigment. This will give it a more uneven look. Apply thinner only where you want your pigments to stick.



Will give that a try Nikos.

Thanks ,so a lot like Mig's way then.

I usually use Mig pigments, but on this I used my set of Monroe Rust pigments ,made for the model railroad folks.

Reason of the change of color, as soon as a coat of flat hit them.

Live and learn it is.

Cheers


Jeff
GTDeath13
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Attica, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: June 12, 2015
KitMaker: 921 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 01:50 AM UTC
Use your pigments after the flat coat. This way they do not dissolve in the varnish. And are easier to stay on the model without fixer.
sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 08:49 AM UTC
Did some more on the rear pieces , and fixed that exhaust shield.

Base soon.





Cheers

Good deal on that Nikos

sgtreef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Monday, August 06, 2018 - 11:37 AM UTC
Started Base.







Cheers