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Armor/AFV: AA/AT/Artillery
For discussions about artillery and anti-aircraft or anti-tank guns.
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SAA truck w/D-30 howitzer question
Wolf239
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St. Petersburg, Russia
Joined: September 05, 2015
KitMaker: 136 posts
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 06:03 PM UTC
Hello to all.

I have found an interesting prototype for the Syrian conflict. It is an SAA GMC flatbed truck with a late type Soviet D-30 howitzer welded on to the bed. Here is the pic:
http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1595&p=16#p930912

The closest truck kit on the market is the Meng F-350. I will be using these kits:
Meng Model - Ford F-350 Super Duty Crew Cab http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10362095
Trumpeter - Soviet Army 122mm Howitzer-gun D-30 Late type http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10204979

I got a couple of questions.

1. As discussed previously here http://armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=260027#2205039 the Meng kit problem is that it is not a fleet trim vehicle. I am going to rebuild it into one, the same way as I did with my RUSOF truck. As I see from the internet, a fleet trim F-350 should be plain color (not two-tone), with steel rims, black plastic parts instead of chrome. Is that right?

2. What happens when the gun opens fire? Will the cab windows be blown out? Will the tires inflate or explode? Will the chassis get twisted or ruptured?

3. On the pics, there is one (right front) hydraulic lift cylinder (outrigger) seen attached near the flatbed corner. I suppose these are used for raising the vehicle up and leveling it before firing to save the tires? But the rear of the vehicle is not visible on the pic. Should I add (scratchbuilt) four hydraulic cylinders instead of two?

4. In which direction is it realistic to point the gun barrel? I am not sure if the gun can fire backwards or sideward. Can it destabilize and overturn the vehicle?
RLlockie
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United Kingdom
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,110 posts
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 06:11 PM UTC
Are you sure that it is welded to the bed? That's not evident to me from that picture and not welding it makes more sense given that if the truck breaks down, you'd lose use of your ordnance.

If it can be fired, I'd expect that it is only along the vehicle's longitudinal axis and I'd expect the glass to go immediately. There's a reason why the G6 has armoured plates to cover the (armoured) driver's can windows. This one is a regular civvy pickup truck. As the glass is still there, it may be just a truck carrying the D-30.
Wolf239
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St. Petersburg, Russia
Joined: September 05, 2015
KitMaker: 136 posts
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 06:34 PM UTC
I am not sure on welding, maybe the gun is bolted to the bed. I got another pic of it but I can’t find where it’s from and I’m not gonna post it due to possible copyright issues. On that pic, I see that the gun carriage arms were cut into halves and the cut segments welded underside the arms stubs fixed on the carriage. This design is reinforced with welded-on steel cross-pieces and coveler plating. Why make such amount of work to shorten the arms twice if not fix the gun on the vehicle? Which would be the means of moving the gun back onto the ground? It seems to me (correct me if I’m wrong) the SAA’s in shortage of vehicles no doubt including engineering, cranes etc? I mean, wouldn’t it be easier to simply tow the D-30 with the same truck instead?
m4sherman
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Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 09:33 PM UTC
I think the conversion was done by one of the rebel groups. The chassis is a heavy duty small truck GMC. It can handle the load, but who knows what happened when they tried firing the gun. It is likely the truck came with the outriggers. They look similar to ones used on light crane or bucket trucks used by line crews that run overhead cables. The Meng Ford is a lighter chassis, a 3/4 ton truck. The GMC is a 1 1/2 ton to 2 ton truck.

I looked for other pictures a few weeks ago and found only those of the truck parked.

I do agree, it would have made more sense to tow the gun, but it is possible the base was damaged so they went to the next step.
Wolf239
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St. Petersburg, Russia
Joined: September 05, 2015
KitMaker: 136 posts
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 10:09 PM UTC
Oooops… The D-30 weighs 7080 lb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/122_mm_howitzer_2A18_(D-30) The 2017 F-350 SRW LWB 4x4 (which is the closest model to the Meng kit as I see it) max payload is 4400 lb http://www.ford.com/trucks/super-duty/2017/models/f350-king-ranch/ Should I still do it? A pity, that seemed such a great idea! And I already started it. Maybe make it with the gun along the car axis, the barrel slightly elevated, with no windows already…
Stickframe
#362
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California, United States
Joined: December 01, 2013
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 11:24 PM UTC
Hi Michael -

before you give up on this idea, maybe consider converting to something bigger in the same product line - maybe the ford F-550? Chevy Ford and Dodge each have incrementally "stronger" (?) trucks - starting with half ton (like the ford f-150) up to many heavy duty options. The F-550 is the biggest you can go with a cab that generally looks like the F-350. The cab on the F-650 looks different. The diesel, 4x4, with dual rear wheels is not unusual for any of the three manufacturers noted above. Clearly this option would require some challenge - but shouldn't be too bad. You'd need to rework the rear spring pack, modify the rear axle - but if you're using a flat bed, no need to modify the normal bed to keep the tires covered - maybe a pain in the neck to find two more rear tires and rims! You might have to buy another kit just for them!! Haha -

Good luck
Nick
m4sherman
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Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, September 10, 2017 - 07:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Oooops… The D-30 weighs 7080 lb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/122_mm_howitzer_2A18_(D-30) The 2017 F-350 SRW LWB 4x4 (which is the closest model to the Meng kit as I see it) max payload is 4400 lb http://www.ford.com/trucks/super-duty/2017/models/f350-king-ranch/ Should I still do it? A pity, that seemed such a great idea! And I already started it. Maybe make it with the gun along the car axis, the barrel slightly elevated, with no windows already…



I think Stickframe made a good suggestion. Or use the Meng Ford and do one of the trucks with the dual AA guns and put the 122mm on one of the Soviet heavy trucks the SAA uses. I'm guessing the lack of pictures of that truck are because it didn't work out, or got wrecked before it could be used.
Wolf239
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St. Petersburg, Russia
Joined: September 05, 2015
KitMaker: 136 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 10, 2017 - 07:16 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Michael -

before you give up on this idea, maybe consider converting to something bigger in the same product line - maybe the ford F-550? Chevy Ford and Dodge each have incrementally "stronger" (?) trucks - starting with half ton (like the ford f-150) up to many heavy duty options. The F-550 is the biggest you can go with a cab that generally looks like the F-350. The cab on the F-650 looks different. The diesel, 4x4, with dual rear wheels is not unusual for any of the three manufacturers noted above. Clearly this option would require some challenge - but shouldn't be too bad. You'd need to rework the rear spring pack, modify the rear axle - but if you're using a flat bed, no need to modify the normal bed to keep the tires covered - maybe a pain in the neck to find two more rear tires and rims! You might have to buy another kit just for them!! Haha -

Good luck
Nick



Thanks!

The F-450 drivetrain http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/towing/1508-how-2015-ford-f-450-and-ram-3500-trucks-are-engineered-to-pull-15-tons/ really looks different from the Meng kit, but there is possibly another option – change only the wheels for resin ones and scratchbuild the flatbed, which seems outwardly enough. The problem is to find 8-stud 20” stamped rim resin wheels (wheels on F-450 can also be 20”). The best option I got by now is Panzer Art RE35-352 KHD 3000S Road wheels (Commercial pattern) http://www.westfront-shop.ru/catalog/panzer-art/27271/ I think after a bit of upgrade they will do.

I’ll still consider installing a Meng resin rocket launcher or Meng AA instead.
Wolf239
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St. Petersburg, Russia
Joined: September 05, 2015
KitMaker: 136 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 10, 2017 - 07:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Oooops… The D-30 weighs 7080 lb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/122_mm_howitzer_2A18_(D-30) The 2017 F-350 SRW LWB 4x4 (which is the closest model to the Meng kit as I see it) max payload is 4400 lb http://www.ford.com/trucks/super-duty/2017/models/f350-king-ranch/ Should I still do it? A pity, that seemed such a great idea! And I already started it. Maybe make it with the gun along the car axis, the barrel slightly elevated, with no windows already…



I think Stickframe made a good suggestion. Or use the Meng Ford and do one of the trucks with the dual AA guns and put the 122mm on one of the Soviet heavy trucks the SAA uses. I'm guessing the lack of pictures of that truck are because it didn't work out, or got wrecked before it could be used.



Sure, that's a good idea, too, I'll think about it. They mainly install 122 mm on Kraz, KAMAZ or Ural or similar heavy trucks.
Stickframe
#362
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California, United States
Joined: December 01, 2013
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Posted: Sunday, September 10, 2017 - 08:09 PM UTC
HI Michael-

out of curiosity, I looked up some pics of the F-450 vintage 2014 - around the time I'm guessing of the Meng Kit - please take a look:



Not that different than what you've got to work with - except, to your point - the wheels are different - next, some of the 4x4, though this is custom, note the "super single" rear wheels:





This is clearly an attractive potential "out" - a way to avoid making the dual rear wheels, and the unique front wheels, though, I'll be the first to say this is not common - - below, is more the norm - even in the City you will see these running around -



and yes = the dual wheels in the rear and special hub (even on custom rims) on the front are pretty obvious.

I think the flatbed conversion should go fairly smoothly -

yes...I'm a bit of a truck nut!

Ok - happy model building!

NIck
Wolf239
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St. Petersburg, Russia
Joined: September 05, 2015
KitMaker: 136 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 10, 2017 - 09:20 PM UTC
Nick,

these wheels look cool but are hard to find in resin. I see it more like this https://www.carsforsale.com/vehicle/details/33631693
Wolf239
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St. Petersburg, Russia
Joined: September 05, 2015
KitMaker: 136 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 02:09 PM UTC
I have just found videos of Hawkeye 105 mm mounted on a Ford truck and an HMMWV. Of course, here is the factory way to do it, and it’s significantly different. It’s interesting to see how it fires.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrZ6RxBhma0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b_-VOTl7FM