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Armor/AFV: Canadian Armor
Discuss all types of Canadian Armor of all eras.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Sexton CDP: Lunch bag let down!
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 06:33 AM UTC
So I saved my nickels (pennies are now obsolete in Canada) and bought the DML Sexton with CDP track.
I was really looking forward to this kit as the Sexton is one of my favourite AFV's and a version with the unique Canadian Dry Pin track system was just money for jam. Yum Yum!
Talk about disappointment! The vinyl CDP track looks like crap and may be the worst vinyl's I have seen since some bad Bandai reboxings.
What utter garbage!
To be honest I am feeling quite bitter about a $100+ kit with un-unuseable track.
So be warned and be cranky!
Gord
SgtRam
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#197
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 07:34 AM UTC
Thinking you may have gotten a bad set, the Dragon DS Track in this kit are not that bad. But, that said, Panda Plastics makes a great set of aftermarket, of which I used on my first build.




Grrdzilla
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 08:06 AM UTC
The Panda tracks look great.
Honestly, the Dragon vinyl tracks have no surface depth at all and the detail looks drawn on. Utter garbage.
Gord
Anybody used the Friulmodel? They seem to be easily available.
Pave-Hawk
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Western Australia, Australia
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 08:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Panda tracks look great...

Anybody used the Friulmodel? They seem to be easily available.



Haven't used them yet but I do have a set of Friul CDP tracks for a planned skink build, and they look pretty good, though I have nothing to compare them to.
Removed by original poster on 09/18/16 - 04:46:37 (GMT).
greggsjr
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 09:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Fruilmodel CDP Grizzly and Sexton (not the best photo)





LOL another try with the photo... amateur hour tonight


Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 09:50 AM UTC
Thanks for the photos.
I think the panda tracks look a bit cleaner who carries them?
Gord
ericadeane
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Michigan, United States
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 12:11 PM UTC
Panda has its own website if your other vendors don't carry them: www.shermantracks.com
ColinEdm
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 07:18 PM UTC
The Panda's are good product, I used them on a Firefly build a couple of years ago.
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 10:12 PM UTC
Thanks Roy,
What does it say about the state of the hobby when a company like Dragon can issue a kit supposedly featuring CDP tracks, charging more, and giving us garbage.
Armour kits in Canada now retail in the 90 -130 dollar price range and having to spend extra money to replace the features I bought the damn kit for are a good way to kill the hobby.

I run a sort of a hobby store here in Chilliwack BC (a small town in western Canada) but it is games that drive sales in the store. Models are a very small (ver,y very small) part of the business, in spite of the enormous shelf space they take up.
I have been trying to bring models back as a hobby. I run building and painting classes, I always have a model or a monster on the building table, and even though that generates a lot of interest, that interest dies pretty quickly when customers look at the price tag.
I do OK with monsters and fantasy figures and that sells lots of paint and supplies but models are practically dead.
As an example, the new Dieppe Churchill from AFV Club should be a lock but it retails for around $130 (115 plus taxes). My wholesale cost is only a few dollars cheaper than the online price, including shipping. I get to every show I can and pick up the bargains, so, I have a ton of stuff I can sell for less than wholesale and the sales just aren't there.
So how do I sell a $100 Sexton that needs a $30 track set?

Grrrd
Sailfish
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 10:59 PM UTC
Gordon, I live in the 'wack too. I am just starting to get back in to the hobby and would like to visit your store. What is the name of your store.

Thanks
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 11:05 PM UTC
Hi Brian,
Hope this is within the rules ...
Chilliweack SlotCar palace
#4 45695 Hocking ave
I take Sunday, Mondays off but will be there Tuesday.
Gord
Love the 'wack, but dairy air has been much with us lately!
SgtRam
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#197
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 02:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As an example, the new Dieppe Churchill from AFV Club should be a lock but it retails for around $130 (115 plus taxes). My wholesale cost is only a few dollars cheaper than the online price, including shipping. I get to every show I can and pick up the bargains, so, I have a ton of stuff I can sell for less than wholesale and the sales just aren't there.
So how do I sell a $100 Sexton that needs a $30 track set?



I think you need a new distributor, the Dieppe Churchill retails for about $80 here in Ontario, and the Sexton around $70, or less. Looking at inflation, the price of kits are not that bad, and most include something way better then the rubber band tracks of the past. As stated, you must of gotten a bad kit, I had the CDP Sexton, and the tracks were not that bad.

Have a look at my review, the tracks looked decent. http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=10596
KurtLaughlin
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 04:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

So how do I sell a $100 Sexton that needs a $30 track set?



Looking at the pics in Kevin's review I would not say that that the kit "needs" new tracks. Even without seeing them track change is something that is the more advanced modelers are going to demand rather than the guy buying a kit off the shelf in a hobby shop.

KL
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 05:49 AM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text

Looking at the pics in Kevin's review I would not say that that the kit "needs" new tracks. Even without seeing them track change is something that is the more advanced modelers are going to demand rather than the guy buying a kit off the shelf in a hobby shop.KL



Anybody who buys a Sexton specifically because of the CDP track is going be very disappointed. I know I was. I have seen CDP track mounted on a Grizzly and these things don't come close.
This has nothing to do with being an advanced modeller. although I think we can assume an advanced level of knowledge. Canadians are justifiably proud of their technoligical contributions to the war effort and I for one want to see them well represented.
Compare these limp vinyl excuses to Jon and Kevin pics of the Panda or Fruil tracks.
If these were offered as Tiger tracks; the Nazi fans would go ballistic.
SgtRam
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#197
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 06:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Canadians are justifiably proud of their technoligical contributions to the war effort and I for one want to see them well represented.



Then you should know better then to buy a Dragon kit with DS Track. There are plenty of reviews online. Being a Canadian, regardless of the kit I purchase, and wanting to do a Canadian vehicle, I am WELL AWARE that I will need to purchase aftermarket parts.

And being the age of the kit, there is plenty of comments out there. But I am more surprised as a store owner you are still charging $100 for the kit. It can be found in most stores now for a discount. I believe my local hobby store has it for less then $50 now.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 06:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This has nothing to do with being an advanced modeller. although I think we can assume an advanced level of knowledge. Canadians are justifiably proud of their technoligical contributions to the war effort and I for one want to see them well represented.



You for one. As a hobby shop owner you might want to consider whether you represent your customer base well. For most, even the ardent Canadian nationalists, the track detailing in and of itself won't be an issue.

KL
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 06:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think you need a new distributor, the Dieppe Churchill retails for about $80 (with tax? check out the suggested retail below), and the Sexton around $70, or less. Looking at inflation, the price of kits are not that bad, and most include something way better then the rubber band tracks of the past. As stated, you must of gotten a bad kit, I had the CDP Sexton, and the tracks were not that bad.


Hi Kevin,
My tracks look exactly like your photos, and as in your build you used Panda tracks I can't believe you were all that satisfied with the originals either.
20 years ago when I started buying armour I was impressed with the quality of the tracks (AFV Club vinyls and DML link on link) they were gorgeous. These CDP tracks from DML are NOT.
Also:
I don't honestly think a different wholesale source would help. The prices are pretty standard between Borgfeldt and PM Hansen for instance and don't forget the prices I quoted include tax.
I live in a small town. In a larger centre I think it is much easier to offer bigger discounts to help move sales along, As an example from the PM Hansen website:
AFV AF35176
1/35 CHURCHILL MK.III
DIEPPE w/WORKABLE TRACKS
On order $114.66 and that's before taxes. That price would be the same across western Canada as PM Hansen has the exclusive.
To offer the Dieppe Churchill at $80 I would have to discount it by 30%. Honestly it doesn't justify the shelf space for a 10% profit margin.
If you know where I can get a better wholesale price please let me know.
It's not just armour. Average prices (taxes in) for a car kit is $30 to $40. Airfix' 1/72nd scale a/c are still good value but jump a series and the prices get stupid. The Spitfire I/II is a gem at around $15, Airfix 1/72nd Beaufighter is $38=$46 depending on Mk. Crazy! BTW the Airfix 1/24th Mosquito is a whopping $387.50 Cdn before taxes
I already cut my prices so that I am competitive or below other stores in the general area (about a 60 mile cachement) but I still don't sell a lot of models. When I compare kit sales to Pokemon, MTG or other card and boardgames they are not really worth the space. Models are on my shelves because I love the hobby.
But it gets harder to allocate so much space with such lousy sales and worse margins. I really need the the space for Pokemon and magic and card singles, which outsell model kits about 200 to 1.
And a kit like the DML CDP Sexton isn't going to help me as I could never reccommend it as out of the box.
Gord
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 09:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text


You for one. As a hobby shop owner you might want to consider whether you represent your customer base well. For most, even the ardent Canadian nationalists, the track detailing in and of itself won't be an issue.KL



You sir are kind of an ass.
I have seen your rude and high handed posts numerous times on this board and so thanks again Kurt, but no thanks.
And so to continue to the discourse hopefully without any more contributions from Mr KL ...
It is exactly because I am thinking about my customers that I am angry about prices and fidelity of detail.
I work very hard and put in long hours to do my absolute best for all my customers. In the case of the CDP version of the Sexton there was interest so I brought one in to check it out and I won't be reccommending it without a warning.
Gordon Parker
Grrdzilla
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 09:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Then you should know better then to buy a Dragon kit with DS Track. There are plenty of reviews online. Being a Canadian, regardless of the kit I purchase, and wanting to do a Canadian vehicle, I am WELL AWARE that I will need to purchase aftermarket parts.


Are you actually telling me this?
In fact your review could have reasonably pointed out how lousy the tracks are, since they are DS after all.
Saying that being Canadian means we cannot trust model manufacturers and need to spend extra to produce a good model is horsepoop. Bronco, AFV, Mirror, Tamiya, Riich and yes, even Dragon make lots of great kits that don't need aftermarket anything.
And what the hell are DS tracks? I have been assuming that it is new shorthand for vinyl track. Is DS supposed to be code for crap?
The vinyl tracks in the Dragon Sherman III's seem perfectly fine, certainly no complaints from me.
GP
SgtRam
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#197
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 03:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And what the hell are DS tracks? I have been assuming that it is new shorthand for vinyl track. Is DS supposed to be code for crap?



You own a store and sell models to the public and you do not know what DS Track is? DS Track is Dragon Styrene tracks. In newer Dragon Kits they are no longer vinyl tracks, they are a form of styrene plastic.


Quoted Text

Saying that being Canadian means we cannot trust model manufacturers and need to spend extra to produce a good model is horsepoop. Bronco, AFV, Mirror, Tamiya, Riich and yes, even Dragon make lots of great kits that don't need aftermarket anything.



That is the difference between modelers. I have yet to find a kit of a Canadian subject that I have not had to add aftermarket parts to correct something.

If you are saying that most kits are good out of the box, then your complaint about DS Track does not hold value. MOST people do not have an issue with those tracks. Since the kit has come out, you are the first person I have heard complain about it.

For the average modeler, most kits are good out of the box, but for a more advanced modeler they are not, and they are aware of what they are getting themselves into when they buy a model. Maybe as a store owner, you should understand your customer base a little more.
SgtRam
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#197
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 04:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

example from the PM Hansen website:
AFV AF35176
1/35 CHURCHILL MK.III
DIEPPE w/WORKABLE TRACKS
On order $114.66 and that's before taxes. That price would be the same across western Canada as PM Hansen has the exclusive.
To offer the Dieppe Churchill at $80 I would have to discount it by 30%. Honestly it doesn't justify the shelf space for a 10% profit margin.



I am glad the stores here in Ontario don't have to deal with PM Hansen, sounds like they are ripping stores off. Most hobby stores here deal with companies in the US for kits, Stevens International, Dragon USA, etc.

The prices Hansen is showing is the reason a lot of modelers turn to the internet to buy. Lucky Models in Hong Kong has the Dieppe Churchill for $39 US, so about $50 Cdn, and with shipping would be about $65 Cdn. So doing the math, Hansens is putting you out of business.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 04:16 PM UTC

Quoted Text

....
Talk about disappointment! The vinyl CDP track looks like crap and may be the worst vinyl's I have seen since some bad Bandai reboxings.
What utter garbage!
.....!
Gord



May I humbly suggest that you post some images of the offensive tracks ? I have seen good and useless DS-tracks in different boxes of the same model so it could possibly be a fault with that specific box.
The fact that some boxes may contain bad DS-tracks make me dislike them but that's just my personal opinion.

/ Robin
ericadeane
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Michigan, United States
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 05:01 PM UTC
Robin: The pic of the CDP DS tracks can be found in Kevin's Sexton review cited above but here's the URL

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=10596

I think I'd have to go with Panda for this...

Gord: I applaud you for your efforts to keep up the hobby at your store despite your core customers' non-interest.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 05:24 PM UTC
The tracks I wanted to see are those in the box owned by Gordon, i.e. the tracks that he complained about, not the ones in the box reviewed by Kevin.

The tracks shown in the review seem to be neither better nor worse than other DS-tracks.

If the tracks in Gordon's box are warped or otherwise damaged then there is reason to complain, if the tracks look like the ones in the review then they are OK (as DS-tracks go) and the modeler who wants to replace them do it based on personal aversion against belt type tracks.

I replace DS-tracks whenever possible (aversion, don't trust them not to break, think single link tracks look better).

/ Robin