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Armor/AFV: Canadian Armor
Discuss all types of Canadian Armor of all eras.
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Sherman 105
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 05:14 AM UTC
I would like to build a sherman 105 as used by the Canadians in Italy or NWE. What hull should I base it on? I am pretty sure they weren't V's.
Thanks
Gordon Parker
TopSmith
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Washington, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 05:15 AM UTC
I believe Tamiya makes a 105 Sherman.
Bravo1102
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 06:14 AM UTC
What kind of Sherman 105? They were based on M4 and M4A3 hulls. They could also be VVSS or HVSS.
They probably weren't Sherman IV (M4A3) so you want a M4 105. Only Dragon makes one. There are various resin conversions to make a 105 Sherman from other kits.
The Tamiya kit is an M4A3. You could swap out the engine deck and rear plate to make an M4.
junglejim
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 07:52 AM UTC
Yep, Dragon M4 105 VVSS only (review here. Before that it was conversion/kit bash.

Jim
M4A1Sherman
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New York, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 08:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Yep, Dragon M4 105 VVSS only (review here. Before that it was conversion/kit bash.

Jim



Agree with Stephen and Jim- Go the DRAGON route on this one...
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 10:19 AM UTC
Thanks all,

I guess Dragon looks like the best bet. I just wish I had a few definitive photos.

Gord
LeoCmdr
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 10:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks all,

I guess Dragon looks like the best bet. I just wish I had a few definitive photos.

Gord



Try to find a copy of this book...The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps: An Illustrated History: John Marteinson, Michael R. McNorgan. If you don't want to buy it check local libraries as some of have them on the shelves...at least in Alberta!

This build should provide you with some inspiration too...

http://www.track-link.com/gallery/2685
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 11:45 AM UTC
I have the RCAC book and have just gone through the photo's again (twice) and if there is a clear photo of a Sherman 1b then I have completely missed it. I know that there are a couple of references in the text but the index is so poor I will likely have to read the whole section again (and it is pretty much a coffee table book) to find any them.
There is a photo in Steve Guthrie's "Sherman in Canadian Service", Fig.7 pg 9, the photo is from the rear quarter and not much help.
I still cannot recall seeing any clear photo's op a Canadian Sherman 105.
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 07:52 PM UTC
After going through most of the books that I own last night I finally found one useful photo of a British 105 in Osprey/Vanguard 15 "The Sherman in British Service". On page 16 there is a photo of a 9th lancers 1b in Italy taken from the front quarter and it is the Dragon kit.
Still, I would really like to see a Canadian one.
Gord
M4A1Sherman
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New York, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 12:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Yep, Dragon M4 105 VVSS only (review here. Before that it was conversion/kit bash.

Jim



Agree with Stephen and Jim- Go the DRAGON route on this one...



Let me amend this statement that I made before I found a few things out regarding the CANADIAN Sherman Ib 105mm Howitzer Tank-

My curiosity was aroused by this thread, so I went ahead and searched a few sites that covered Shermans serving in Canadian Armoured Units during WWII, specifically the versions armed with the M3A1 105mm Howitzer...

I came up with the Sherman Ib, (in essence, a US M4 VVSS 105mm), which was essentially a mid/late-production US M4, using the 460HP Wright-Continental R-975C Radial Petrol Engine, mounted in the 56-DEGREE WELDED HULL,

NOT the 47-degree Hull, as found in the DRAGON M4 105mm kit! This DRAGON kit is specifically the US M4 105mm Howitzer Tank, but it is a kit of a later Tank, using the M4A3-style late 47-degree Hull. When placed side by side, the differences in the hull shapes become readily apparent...

The Canadian Sherman Ib utilized the new, different 105mm Turret, Mantlet and Gun Mounts, the same as the US M4 105mm Howitzer Tank. The difference lies in which Hulls were used. I should have done this research for you BEFORE I posted my first comment in this thread... Sorry...

Therefore, if I may, I would instead like to suggest that you obtain either the DRAGON 6511 M4 VVSS 75mm (Dry) "Normandy" kit, or if you prefer, the ASUKA M4 (Late) "Fay" kit, (the kit # escapes me at the moment), as BOTH of these kits will furnish you with the proper 56-degree welded Hull with VVSS Suspension, and the correct Rear Engine Doors, Air Cleaners, Exhausts and Upper Engine Deck.

The old TAMIYA M4 kit will also work, but you'd be much further ahead by buying either the DRAGON or ASUKA M4 kits. Be forewarned- the TAMIYA KIT HAS NUMEROUS ISSUES, so if I were you, I wouldn't even bother with it...

You will need to source either a TAMIYA M4 105mm kit for the Turret (they are cheap on ebay ), or you can go the aftermarket route by buying either THE TANK WORKSHOP (TWS) resin M4 105mm Turret Conversion, or THE NEW TIGER MODELS (TMD) resin M4 105mm Turret Conversion. This way will cost you a bit more money, but the results will be more satisfying for you.

You will also need to obtain a set of US M4 T49 3-Bar Metal Cleat Tracks to replicate the Canadian version properly. All of the above kits and conversions are reasonably priced, and can be found easily enough, as nearly all aftermarket Track manufacturers make them. Put it this way- You'll still get this project done, even with buying the extras, than you would be if you were to undertake building a specific Tiger I accurately...

I sincerely hope that this bit of info helps you out...
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 01:20 AM UTC
Hi Dennis,

Many Thanks for this. I was nearly certain that it was not a 47 degree hull so was just going to park the project until I have photos.
Somewhere I have some Barry Beldam drawings in an RT (somewhere) and as I recall it was a cast hull, but memory fades.
I do have the Tank Workshop 105 Turret and some 3 bar cleat track (somewhere) so will look for the Asuka kit.
Is the cupola correct in TWS kit for Canadian usage?
Do you have any photos of a Canadian 105?

Gord
GeraldOwens
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Florida, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 02:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Yep, Dragon M4 105 VVSS only (review here. Before that it was conversion/kit bash.

Jim



Agree with Stephen and Jim- Go the DRAGON route on this one...



Let me amend this statement that I made before I found a few things out regarding the CANADIAN Sherman Ib 105mm Howitzer Tank-

My curiosity was aroused by this thread, so I went ahead and searched a few sites that covered Shermans serving in Canadian Armoured Units during WWII, specifically the versions armed with the M3A1 105mm Howitzer...

I came up with the Sherman Ib, (in essence, a US M4 VVSS 105mm), which was essentially a mid/late-production US M4, using the 460HP Wright-Continental R-975C Radial Petrol Engine, mounted in the 56-DEGREE WELDED HULL,

NOT the 47-degree Hull, as found in the DRAGON M4 105mm kit! This DRAGON kit is specifically the US M4 105mm Howitzer Tank, but it is a kit of a later Tank, using the M4A3-style late 47-degree Hull. When placed side by side, the differences in the hull shapes become readily apparent...

The Canadian Sherman Ib utilized the new, different 105mm Turret, Mantlet and Gun Mounts, the same as the US M4 105mm Howitzer Tank. The difference lies in which Hulls were used. I should have done this research for you BEFORE I posted my first comment in this thread... Sorry...

Therefore, if I may, I would instead like to suggest that you obtain either the DRAGON 6511 M4 VVSS 75mm (Dry) "Normandy" kit, or if you prefer, the ASUKA M4 (Late) "Fay" kit, (the kit # escapes me at the moment), as BOTH of these kits will furnish you with the proper 56-degree welded Hull with VVSS Suspension, and the correct Rear Engine Doors, Air Cleaners, Exhausts and Upper Engine Deck.

The old TAMIYA M4 kit will also work, but you'd be much further ahead by buying either the DRAGON or ASUKA M4 kits. Be forewarned- the TAMIYA KIT HAS NUMEROUS ISSUES, so if I were you, I wouldn't even bother with it...

You will need to source either a TAMIYA M4 105mm kit for the Turret (they are cheap on ebay ), or you can go the aftermarket route by buying either THE TANK WORKSHOP (TWS) resin M4 105mm Turret Conversion, or THE NEW TIGER MODELS (TMD) resin M4 105mm Turret Conversion. This way will cost you a bit more money, but the results will be more satisfying for you.

You will also need to obtain a set of US M4 T49 3-Bar Metal Cleat Tracks to replicate the Canadian version properly. All of the above kits and conversions are reasonably priced, and can be found easily enough, as nearly all aftermarket Track manufacturers make them. Put it this way- You'll still get this project done, even with buying the extras, than you would be if you were to undertake building a specific Tiger I accurately...

I sincerely hope that this bit of info helps you out...



When and where was this machine manufactured? Other than prototypes, all 105mm howitzer tanks were built on 47 degree hulls, either M4 or M4A3. Are you suggesting that a 1944 howitzer turret was retrofitted to a 1943-production dry stowage M4? What would be the point? I have seen British Sherman IB tanks photographed in Italy, but all were standard 47 degree hulls.
ericadeane
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 02:29 AM UTC
Dennis: what Gerald said was correct. The M4 105 Prototypes were built on a handful of M4, M4 Composite hulls and M4A4s. Then for the production variant, they used the last M4 hull, a large hatch 47 degree glacis. THERE WAS NEVER a PRODUCTION M4 105 built on a 53 degree glacis M4.

DML's Sherman M4 105 is correct. Your suggestion to use a mid production M4 (DML, Tasca, Tamiya, whoever) would be a woeful mistake.

Also you seem to distinguish the "Canadian version Sherman IB" as somehow different that the one issued to American units. Or that somehow T49 tracks were the sole purview of these "Canadian" Mk IBs -- again that's in error. The M4 (105) WAS the Sherman IB -- just a different designation. As for track suggestions, the builder should look to match any particular photo. I've seen Commonwealth Sherman IBs in T48s and T49s. To suggest only the T49s were correct, is another overstatement.

This is readily discussed in Hunnicutt, p 267.

Another interesting fact: about half the production of M4 (105) and M4A3 (105) were build with the HVSS rather than VVS
junglejim
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 03:46 AM UTC
Gordon, check out p.224, not the best photo, but it's a IB loading up with 105mm ammo, but from the back end it's hard to tell. The 'vision' cupola gives it away though.

Jim
LeoCmdr
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 08:00 AM UTC
Gord,

I'm not sure how much you know about the use of the Sherman IBs in Canadian Armoured Regiments but they were issued in limited numbers. The Sherman IBs were issued to the Squadron Headquarters (SHQ) Troop within a tank Squadron. SHQ would likely be in the best position to provide firebase support for the Sabre Troops moving to their objectives.

For example...within the Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) here is a bit of info on the Sherman IBs within the Regiment during WWII. This info is directly from the LdSH(RC) Regimental Manual.

A Squadron, SHQ Troop

Attila II- Taken over first by Captain Gartke and carried on without mishap until it was replaced by a 105 mm Sherman at Cervia. Commanded by various Sergeants until the end.

Ajax II- Taken over by Sergeant A.H. Williams, MM- later by Corporal Kapinka. Exchanged for a 105 mm Sherman at Cervia and carried on. Finished up with Sergeant Penniciuck in command.

B Squadron, SHQ Troop

Bishop- Was the Squadron 2IC's tank, but when the Left of out Battle (LOB) policy came into effect (always in force after the Liri) it was manned by one or the other of the Sergeants: the 2IC took over "Bader" when the Battle Captain was LOB. The only exception was during the push from Arnhem, after the original had been exchanged for a 105 mm, when Captain Morrison took "Bishop"- and laid some useful HE and smoke shells south of Otterloo when the tail of the column was passing through.

Barker- Started off from Matera as the Squadron Leader's tank and carried Major Milroy through until he was wounded (away from the tank) on the bad night in the Gothic Line. After Coriano, a Sergeant manned it. It was replaced by a radial-engine 105 mm in Cervia.

C Squadron, SHQ Troop

Connolly III- Commanded by Sergeant Fallas for the remainder of the war. Named changed to Condor III when Connolly III became 105 mm.

Conacher II- Carried on for the remainder of the war, exchanged for 105 mm at Cervia. Crew commanders were Sergeant Gaudette, Sergeant Switzer, Captain Chatwin, Corporals Goldsack and Francis, and Captain Sutherland in Northwest Europe.


Good luck with your project.

Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 09:59 PM UTC
Hi Dennis,

Did you find actual photos?

I went through my RT's and found several Barry Beldam drawings and now that I look at the profiles with more educated eyes, they are best represented by the Dragon kit.
However, in RT Vol 9 No 5, Barry has a drawing of a TRR Sherman IIb (cast hull 105 named) "Cyclops".
Barry Beldam is well known as a scrupulous researcher and anytime I have found a photo related to his drawings they have been spot on. In this case Barry acknowledges the assistance of Trpr V.Dowire, the gunner of Cylops so obviously some insider knowledge. I have high confidence in the drawing.
Now that is the version I would love to build but would like to see a photo first.

Gord
gastec
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Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 10:41 PM UTC
My Sherman 1B in NZ service..





http://www.plasticarmour.com/sherman-1b.html

DML base kit with Tasca running gear plus add ons.

Gary
ericadeane
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Posted: Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 07:45 AM UTC
Gord: the "Cyclops" thought of an M4A2 as a Howitzer tank simply doesn't jibe with documented production. Nor does the idea that their maintenance guys cobble one together.

I asked this before
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1130244830

The only pictures of an M4 (105) with the earlier 53 degree hulls were prototypes (cf. Hunnicutt).

Gary Boxall -- that looks FANTASTIC!!
Grrdzilla
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 08:43 AM UTC
Hi Roy
and thanks.
I do agree that veterans memories can be notoriously unreliable (my own Fathers for instance) and I suppose that it is mostly wishful thinking on my part.
But, Barry Beldam is usually very thorough ...
And I am yet to see a photo of a Canadian Sherman 105 from the front quarter or side.
I am not arguing you understand and I know for a fact that you know a lot more about Shermans than most people here, but wouldn't it be nice to find something new and unique?
In the meantime I will shelve this project until I see a photo of a Canadian 105.
Cheers
Gord
ericadeane
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Posted: Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 04:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text

but wouldn't it be nice to find something new and unique?



Oh absolutely! I can't build a straight Tiger, Panther if you paid me. All my projects are oddballs or attempts to match a known photo. And I love looking at photos -- specifically to find the oddballs
tankmodeler
#417
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, July 21, 2016 - 08:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

But, Barry Beldam is usually very thorough ...


I've known Barry for many years and you're right, he's very thorough. But he's not infallible.

There was never a Sherman IIb.
There was also never a Sherman IIc, thought Barry insisted on it for years. He has acknowledged the error since.
He also insisted that Canadian armoured regiments used blue over green tac signs, but eventually acknowledged that they were all red as in Brit brigades.

The old RT stuff is good, but some of it has been superseded.

Paul
Grrdzilla
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Posted: Monday, July 25, 2016 - 05:10 AM UTC
THANKS Thanks Paul,

I'm not arguing just wishing and I think I remember some of those discussions from years ago on another site.
Didn't George Bradford run an AFV site and I seem to recall a 3 corner discussion with you, Barry and Don Dingwall.
Gord