login   |    register
Air Campaigns
Want to start or join a group build? This is where to start.
campaign planing
Namabiiru
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
#399
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Rhode Island, United States
Joined: March 05, 2014
KitMaker: 2,850 posts
AeroScale: 306 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 - 05:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Playing devil's advocate for a moment, should campaigns be 7 months long as a rule, or will we still get people wanting the extension, regardless of how long the campaign is to start with. I noticed a few days ago on the Big Bad Bombers campaign (due to end 30 Nov, now has 1 month extension), that one individual only started their model one week before the campaign was due to end anyway, which tells me that people are taking the extension for granted.

Any thoughts?



I always though that the month long extension was a bit strange, especially if a campaign had been over six months long. I think if you made a campaign seven months long people would still want an extension.



Agreed

drabslab
_VISITCOMMUNITY
European Union
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,174 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 - 08:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Playing devil's advocate for a moment, should campaigns be 7 months long as a rule, or will we still get people wanting the extension, regardless of how long the campaign is to start with. I noticed a few days ago on the Big Bad Bombers campaign (due to end 30 Nov, now has 1 month extension), that one individual only started their model one week before the campaign was due to end anyway, which tells me that people are taking the extension for granted.

Any thoughts?



I always though that the month long extension was a bit strange, especially if a campaign had been over six months long. I think if you made a campaign seven months long people would still want an extension.



Agreed




Agreed as well. Better to have 6 months and when appropriate extedn with one month than 7 months and also having to extend it

Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,369 posts
AeroScale: 7,396 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 04, 2014 - 12:14 AM UTC
The Grumman campaign is my 7th Aeroscale/Armorama campaign. In every single one on Armorama a 2-4 weeks extension has been the norm, not the exception. Nearly all of the time it's due to a very late start, or being in multiple campaigns and just not having enough bench time for multiple builds. How is this fair to those that start in enough time to complete their planned build? In most cases it's not. Sorry, but if granting an additional month is nearly a universal deal, then why even bother having a listed finish date? Just a start date, and when your model is finished, a ribbon will be awarded.

The concept that finishing isn't important just makes little sense to me. Why bother starting any project either for a campaign or a self build, if finishing isn't the final goal? You could just as easily discuss builds without actually doing one yourself.

I do think that one should keep in mind that this is a model building site.

In any event, as I said at the start of my previous post, I know my views are the opposite of the majority. So for me I'll just continue to post build blogs in the appropriate forum, and leave campaigns to others.

Joel
Namabiiru
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
#399
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Rhode Island, United States
Joined: March 05, 2014
KitMaker: 2,850 posts
AeroScale: 306 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 04, 2014 - 02:19 AM UTC
IMHO, The only way to be as fair as possible to as many people as possible is no extensions, no exceptions; However, since this is intended to be a fun way to encourage people to share in the avocation, I suspect most people would consider that too harsh, which argument I readily accept.

PrickleHead
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Western Australia, Australia
Joined: December 31, 2013
KitMaker: 338 posts
AeroScale: 190 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 04, 2014 - 02:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

IMHO, The only way to be as fair as possible to as many people as possible is no extensions, no exceptions; However, since this is intended to be a fun way to encourage people to share in the avocation, I suspect most people would consider that too harsh, which argument I readily accept.




I have no problems with the extensions as it should encourage more to finish and hopefully keep the kitmaker network the entertaining place I have found it to be.
md72
#439
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Washington, United States
Joined: November 05, 2005
KitMaker: 4,748 posts
AeroScale: 3,070 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 04, 2014 - 03:06 AM UTC
Well, I clearly do not have Joel's patience. Last year I was very good about joining and finishing campaigns. This year, not so much, I've even taken to modeling in hotel rooms when I'm traveling to try and keep up.

On the other hand, some campaigns are of little to no interest to me at all, a couple of others were so interesting that I've built kits outside of my comfort zone. I think that for the first time in 40 years , I've built aircraft kits kits that don't have US markings....

If I had a suggestion, it might be to allow more than one campaign per month, but limit the subjects to like 1 Biplane, 1 prop, 1 jet per month.

It's a tough job, and I'm going to let you do it your way.

As it is, I too , am losing the stash war. Bought 4 more kits than I finished in the last 2 months.
drabslab
_VISITCOMMUNITY
European Union
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,174 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 04, 2014 - 03:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As it is, I too , am losing the stash war. Bought 4 more kits than I finished in the last 2 months.



Shame on you!!!

I know th feeling
Mcleod
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Alberta, Canada
Joined: April 07, 2010
KitMaker: 1,028 posts
AeroScale: 939 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 04, 2014 - 10:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If I spent half as much time modeling as I do browsing Kitmaker and commenting on other peoples builds, I would be able to complete a build in every Campaign available!


Yes, me too. However, the comments are so important, and there are many posts of fine builds that seem to be neglected in the comment dept..


Quoted Text

I think if you made a campaign seven months long people would still want an extension.


I agree. Being interested in the extension question for my own campaigns, I took a look at some past campaign threads. The fact is, the extensions are of little value to most, because often the models in question are not finished anyway; even with an extra month.
This is why I don't offer extensions, but rather, issue the ribbon anyway, if the model is completed within a couple of weeks of campaign close.
Dragon164
#226
_VISITCOMMUNITY
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: February 20, 2012
KitMaker: 1,904 posts
AeroScale: 507 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 04, 2014 - 12:55 PM UTC
Well...

I will put my two cents in

I think we should encourage people to finish the campaigns they enter, but believe the most important aspect is participation sharing a build in a campaign makes it less of a solo effort.

The extensions are inevitable I believe and a necessary evil I have been saved by one more than once. Lets not forget that Life tends to get in the way once in a while.

One reason I believe for the disparity between enlistments and participation (now this is mostly on Aeroscale) is that the campaigns are so far in the future that people either lose interest or just forget about some campaigns.

Again I think the most important thing is to participate and to have fun!

Cheers Rob.
drabslab
_VISITCOMMUNITY
European Union
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,174 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 04, 2014 - 05:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text

If I spent half as much time modeling as I do browsing Kitmaker and commenting on other peoples builds, I would be able to complete a build in every Campaign available!



Making models is only the tool, what really counts is the friendships and contacts it brings.

And time spent on Aeroscale, in this respect, is very valuable. It allows to exchange views with people we would otherwise not even know the existence of.
Thearmorer
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Alabama, United States
Joined: June 17, 2014
KitMaker: 121 posts
AeroScale: 118 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 04, 2014 - 09:40 PM UTC
This is just a thought on the campaign extension debate. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to have the campaign end dates treated as if they were etched in stone, 'BUT' (there's always a but) allow any campaigners who can get their final photos into the campaign gallery within two weeks or so of the end date to qualify for their ribbon. It seems like this would be less hassle than having to get Papal dispensation at the end of each campaign for an extension.

Duane
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,369 posts
AeroScale: 7,396 posts
Posted: Friday, December 05, 2014 - 12:11 AM UTC
The concept that joining a campaign encourages interaction with other modelers maybe a secondary benefit of a campaign, but the main goal is to get members to build and complete a model in a given time frame within the stated subject area.

Non-campaign members rarely look at the going ons of a campaign. Heck, I'm one of the more active posters, and I've never bothered to drop into any campaign I'm not in. The reason is simple, it's impossible to follow a build from start to conclusion as just open posts are displayed by date/time. On the other hand following a build or thread in a forum is very easy. That's the main reason why I also post a build thread of my campaign builds.

Campaigns have such far off starting dates because we have so many campaigns. I can see that a year or so of waiting for the start can have a negative effect on ones enthusiasm for the campaign or completing it, as other campaigns have come online that might very well have a greater interest factor.

What about increasing the needed number of enlistees from 10 to 25? That would really cut down on the number of future and current campaigns. Opening starting slots while the campaign is a hot topic.

And lets not forget that anyone or group of modelers can start a Open Buddy Build. Justin and I did that with the P-61. And we had plenty of builds and posts. We were able to start it in a timely manner, and it ran until no one wanted to post a build. The only difference is that we didn't hand out ribbons.

Joel
justsendit
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: February 24, 2014
KitMaker: 2,966 posts
AeroScale: 60 posts
Posted: Friday, December 05, 2014 - 12:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Non-campaign members rarely look at the going ons of a campaign. ...



Oh yes we do!
Lakota
#123
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New Mexico, United States
Joined: November 17, 2008
KitMaker: 1,177 posts
AeroScale: 284 posts
Posted: Friday, December 05, 2014 - 06:33 AM UTC
Howdy Y'all
I'd have to second Duane's suggestion, a week or two has helped me in the past. I've dropped out of campaigns because I still had about a month of building to do. Then I discover the campaign was extended a month.

Maybe we should ask the question, "Why do we have Campaigns and what is the purpose/goal?"

I think the campaigns promote sharing and collaboration in a community of modelers with similar interests. And, that is fun and rewarding. If we want to see finished models maybe we should relax the rule about requiring un-started kits and allow some models that have been previously started. I've never understood why some campaigns are so strict about this rule. The usual response is, "It wouldn't be fair to the others." I've never felt it was "unfair" to me, I enjoy seeing finished models more rather than un-started models in a box or half-finished models on a workbench.

Just my two cents. Y'all take care,
Don "Lakota"
Mcleod
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Alberta, Canada
Joined: April 07, 2010
KitMaker: 1,028 posts
AeroScale: 939 posts
Posted: Friday, December 05, 2014 - 09:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If we want to see finished models maybe we should relax the rule about requiring un-started kits and allow some models that have been previously started.


I agree with good ideas.
justsendit
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: February 24, 2014
KitMaker: 2,966 posts
AeroScale: 60 posts
Posted: Friday, December 05, 2014 - 09:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

If we want to see finished models maybe we should relax the rule about requiring un-started kits and allow some models that have been previously started.


I agree with good ideas.



This would motivate me to enlist in campaigns.
PrickleHead
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Western Australia, Australia
Joined: December 31, 2013
KitMaker: 338 posts
AeroScale: 190 posts
Posted: Friday, December 05, 2014 - 11:47 AM UTC
Just a tossed out thought here perhaps open ended campaigns and you "earn your medals" kind of like the scouts....Make up some generic campaigns.

Fighter
Bomber
Flying Boat
Civilian
Jet....that kind of thing.

And then perhaps a maximum of six specialised campaigns per year.






ljames0874
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: August 15, 2012
KitMaker: 408 posts
AeroScale: 365 posts
Posted: Friday, December 05, 2014 - 01:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text


What about increasing the needed number of enlistees from 10 to 25? That would really cut down on the number of future and current campaigns. Opening starting slots while the campaign is a hot topic.

Joel



Personally, I think jumping from 10 to 25 is a huge leap (maybe 15 would be a good start) - you would lose a lot of the more interesting campaign ideas (to me anyway), and we would just be left with fairly generic campaign titles like WWI, Battle of Britain etc. I would question also whether such a move would have any impact on the number of people completing the campaign - look at your own Grumman campaign as an example - does huge initial enthusiasm for a campaign proposal translate into large numbers completing the campaign?

In the 2-3 years I have been participating, the most enthusiastically supported campaigns have been (off the top of my head) Anything Goes, The Lottery Campaign, and The Russell Anderson Campaign - perhaps these "lowest common denominator" campaigns should have separate requirements (maybe a minimum of 25 sign ups) and leave the more specific campaigns as they are - just a thought.
AussieReg
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
#007
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Victoria, Australia
Joined: June 09, 2009
KitMaker: 7,722 posts
AeroScale: 3,667 posts
Posted: Friday, December 05, 2014 - 01:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

If we want to see finished models maybe we should relax the rule about requiring un-started kits and allow some models that have been previously started.


I agree with good ideas.



This would motivate me to enlist in campaigns.



I always allow started kits in my campaigns, started within reason!

If a few sub-assemblies have been put together, I'm all for it. As stated previously, I would rather see a kit completed and on the shelf than half-baked in a box.

If the major assembly is done and it's ready for paint however, it belongs in the Hangar Queen campaign series. This series is always a fascinating grab-bag of manufacturers and aircraft.

To say that allowing started kits is "unfair to other builders" implies that a campaign is some sort of competition. I understand them to be a select group of like-minded modellers building kits to meet a theme and a set of guidelines. The ribbon to me is not a prize, just a way to signify that this modeller had completed a build in the nominated campaign.

Cheers, D
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,369 posts
AeroScale: 7,396 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 06, 2014 - 03:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


What about increasing the needed number of enlistees from 10 to 25? That would really cut down on the number of future and current campaigns. Opening starting slots while the campaign is a hot topic.

Joel



Personally, I think jumping from 10 to 25 is a huge leap (maybe 15 would be a good start) - you would lose a lot of the more interesting campaign ideas (to me anyway), and we would just be left with fairly generic campaign titles like WWI, Battle of Britain etc. I would question also whether such a move would have any impact on the number of people completing the campaign - look at your own Grumman campaign as an example - does huge initial enthusiasm for a campaign proposal translate into large numbers completing the campaign?

In the 2-3 years I have been participating, the most enthusiastically supported campaigns have been (off the top of my head) Anything Goes, The Lottery Campaign, and The Russell Anderson Campaign - perhaps these "lowest common denominator" campaigns should have separate requirements (maybe a minimum of 25 sign ups) and leave the more specific campaigns as they are - just a thought.



Lee,
My Grumman campaign is as you said a perfect example of what usually is the norm, not the exception. When I 1st proposed it, there was a huge amount of posts, and a generally high interest in building one of Leroy Grummans "Cats". The campaign was assigned a start date 7 months from the date of the of official campaign thread. It's my feeling that the 7 months was a major factor in declining enthusiasm that directly led to a lack of participation, as well as the ever increasing number of campaigns starting before and after it.

I really don't expect much if anything to change regarding how campaigns are organized, and run. That's why I said that with the completion of the Grumman campaign, I won't be participating in any future campaigns. as I will continue to concentrate on Build blogs in the appropriate forums.

Joel
MichaelSatin
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
AEROSCALE
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 3,785 posts
AeroScale: 2,790 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 06, 2014 - 05:53 AM UTC
There have been a lot of interesting suggestions in this thread and I'm glad to hear from you all. Joel, I'm sorry to hear that you're as jaded by campaigns as you say. I'd like to be able to satisfy everyone's wants but over the years I've learned that this is impossible. Certainly forcing modelers to finish a build is not in the cards and I think we can all agree not only that it won't work but that it will chase some people away altogether.

I've been doing this job for about a year now and trying to stick to the script as I found it while I got more used to the way things are run. Now that I feel more settled in, I'm certainly willing to try some experimentation to see how people like it. Two of the suggestions in this thread echo things I also have thought about changing:

1. More than one new campaign per month. I agree that the fact that new campaigns are often backed up for a year or more is discouraging. I like the variety but people do lose interest. Would you all like to see us try 2 per month for awhile and see how that goes? I could write to all the leaders of campaigns currently in "future" list to see if they want to see theirs moved up. I also have to balance my own real life pursuits with trying to keep an eye on all this.

2. The unwritten "only unstarted kits" rule. I don't think that one's actually stated anywhere but it appears to have become a normal addition to people's rules. I fully agree with the comments above that it's more important to see finished models than unstarted ones and will start to encourage campaign leaders to allow kits no more than (say) one-third finished. This might allow people to pull out some started kits that meet the campaign theme and get them done.

Do these ideas sound like they might help to meet some of everyone's concerns here? I think they would encourage more participation and finishing rates while retaining the underlying philosophy of the campaigns: to build to a theme, share information, and have fun with our online friends!

Michael
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,369 posts
AeroScale: 7,396 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 06, 2014 - 06:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There have been a lot of interesting suggestions in this thread and I'm glad to hear from you all. Joel, I'm sorry to hear that you're as jaded by campaigns as you say. I'd like to be able to satisfy everyone's wants but over the years I've learned that this is impossible. Certainly forcing modelers to finish a build is not in the cards and I think we can all agree not only that it won't work but that it will chase some people away altogether.

I've been doing this job for about a year now and trying to stick to the script as I found it while I got more used to the way things are run. Now that I feel more settled in, I'm certainly willing to try some experimentation to see how people like it. Two of the suggestions in this thread echo things I also have thought about changing:

1. More than one new campaign per month. I agree that the fact that new campaigns are often backed up for a year or more is discouraging. I like the variety but people do lose interest. Would you all like to see us try 2 per month for awhile and see how that goes? I could write to all the leaders of campaigns currently in "future" list to see if they want to see theirs moved up. I also have to balance my own real life pursuits with trying to keep an eye on all this.

2. The unwritten "only unstarted kits" rule. I don't think that one's actually stated anywhere but it appears to have become a normal addition to people's rules. I fully agree with the comments above that it's more important to see finished models than unstarted ones and will start to encourage campaign leaders to allow kits no more than (say) one-third finished. This might allow people to pull out some started kits that meet the campaign theme and get them done.

Do these ideas sound like they might help to meet some of everyone's concerns here? I think they would encourage more participation and finishing rates while retaining the underlying philosophy of the campaigns: to build to a theme, share information, and have fun with our online friends!

Michael



Michael,
I think that both of your ideas are exceptional, and would point the campaigns in the right direction. My intention was to offer new directions that hopefully would encourage those that enter campaigns to focus on those builds with their best efforts.

Right now I just started the GWH 1/48 scale F-15C for a build blog that I signed up for as a Aeroscale contributor. these builds are very important to me, as it's my way of giving back to the Aeroscale community.

Joel

Mcleod
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Alberta, Canada
Joined: April 07, 2010
KitMaker: 1,028 posts
AeroScale: 939 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 06, 2014 - 06:20 AM UTC
I really like your published thoughts, Michael.
I agree with you, so my vote is to allow 2 campaigns per month along with started kits allowed. The object of the forum is to see finished models and learn the sometimes intricate process to finish them; so what does it matter if a model is +/-90% complete. The point is to show how to create.

The ribbons are not a medal; they are a collection of pixels proving you completed a build. That's the only purpose for them; it's the model and the education that is important.
tinbanger
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Ontario, Canada
Joined: February 04, 2008
KitMaker: 2,498 posts
AeroScale: 1,814 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 06, 2014 - 06:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I really like your published thoughts, Michael.
I agree with you, so my vote is to allow 2 campaigns per month along with started kits allowed. The object of the forum is to see finished models and learn the sometimes intricate process to finish them; so what does it matter if a model is +/-90% complete. The point is to show how to create.

The ribbons are not a medal; they are a collection of pixels proving you completed a build. That's the only purpose for them; it's the model and the education that is important.



Ben what would you say to an entry being allowed in that has not been painted on the exterior, would that be 90%?

Some interesting comments have been posted !
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,369 posts
AeroScale: 7,396 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 06, 2014 - 07:23 AM UTC
I would rather see models previously started but require a finished model with two pictures in the Gallery to qualify for a ribbon. As a present campaign leader, the gallery is the easy way to award ribbons for finished models, and to do a pictorial summary of the campaign builds.

While ribbons are just a collection of pixels, to many they're important enough to use as their signature picture. It's non written way to communicate to others with a interest in campaigns that these are the ones that have been completed to date.

Joel