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World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
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1/48 B-17F Build - 303rd BGs Luscious Lady
KPHB17FE
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Illinois, United States
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Posted: Friday, May 29, 2020 - 02:09 AM UTC
It is not one of the ones in the Koster set. I have been thinking about making one but I have found no drawings and no head on view. We can probably come pretty close with the photos I have posted here. Hell, who can prove us wrong ! It appears to have the standard K4 mount on four posts albeit different from either the round one on "Miss Ouachita" or the later metal one. And of course totally different fro what we see in the Belle. I refer to this one as the recessed mount. Looks to me like they formed a recess and then cut out the nose for it. I think I have seen a more head on view so I will do some more looking. The best approach may be vacuforming the recess separately and a new nose, then cutting it out. Dunno, but will be worth investigating as I know you want it right !
Redhand
#522
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Posted: Friday, May 29, 2020 - 02:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It is not one of the ones in the Koster set. I have been thinking about making one but I have found no drawings and no head on view. We can probably come pretty close with the photos I have posted here. Hell, who can prove us wrong ! It appears to have the standard K4 mount on four posts albeit different from either the round one on "Miss Ouachita" or the later metal one. And of course totally different fro what we see in the Belle. I refer to this one as the recessed mount. Looks to me like they formed a recess and then cut out the nose for it. I think I have seen a more head on view so I will do some more looking. The best approach may be vacuforming the recess separately and a new nose, then cutting it out. Dunno, but will be worth investigating as I know you want it right !



Thank you so much. I had a feeling about this and scratch building. Sigh.

BTW, another question. Is Vicious Virgin's nose configuration the same as Luscious Lady's? (There's a reason I ask).
pmontero
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Las Palmas, Spain / España
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Posted: Friday, May 29, 2020 - 02:37 AM UTC
Not a head on view, but maybe this photo can help.

https://b17flyingfortress.de/cms/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/42-3073.jpg
Redhand
#522
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Posted: Friday, May 29, 2020 - 03:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Not a head on view, but maybe this photo can help.

https://b17flyingfortress.de/cms/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/42-3073.jpg



Thank you so much! That's awesome!
KPHB17FE
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Illinois, United States
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Posted: Friday, May 29, 2020 - 07:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

BTW, another question. Is Vicious Virgin's nose configuration the same as Luscious Lady's? (There's a reason I ask).



No, it is not. It looks more like the one on "Miss Ouachita" although the only photo I can find is not that sharp.
Redhand
#522
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Posted: Friday, May 29, 2020 - 10:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

BTW, another question. Is Vicious Virgin's nose configuration the same as Luscious Lady's? (There's a reason I ask).



No, it is not. It looks more like the one on "Miss Ouachita" although the only photo I can find is not that sharp.



I have a couple I will post here.
Redhand
#522
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Posted: Friday, May 29, 2020 - 11:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I have a couple I will post here.



Karl:

I'd like your analysis of both Luscious Lady and Vicious Virgin from these pics. They are the best nose shots I have of both aircraft, and why I have thought (for years) that they had basically the same nose configuration.

Please lemme know your thoughts after studying them.

LUSCIOUS LADY



The length of the barrel out of the nose made me think that the full barrel (or most of it) extended through the nose. And check out the nose details below, with particular attention to the dark "conical?" base at the front of the nose.



And this one, FWIW.




VICIOUS VIRGIN

This is the best nose shot that exists, IMO.



From the other side.



You can see why I thought it might be like Miss Quachita.

And of course, the classic picture of the aircraft.

KPHB17FE
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Posted: Friday, May 29, 2020 - 12:39 PM UTC
The reason you thought that was because you were right! I don't remember why I thought LL had the molded recess. Sorry to confuse things! I will go back in my hole now...
Redhand
#522
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Posted: Friday, May 29, 2020 - 01:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The reason you thought that was because you were right! I don't remember why I thought LL had the molded recess. Sorry to confuse things! I will go back in my hole now...



No need! Thanks for your input, as always. What makes these pics so hard to interpret is that the circular hole in front of the nose appears smaller than the one in Miss Quachita. Also, there is some external collar around the base of the barrel where it projects out of the nose of Vicious Virgin, which clearly isn't present in Luscious Lady. The way I interpret the two 303rd A/C is they they have the same nose opening, but Vicious Virgin's gun is seated somewhat farther back, and the barrel consequently doesn't extend as far out from the nose. That appearance is accentuated by that collar around the barrel outside the cone, which makes it look even shorter.

While we're at it, the formation shot of Vicious Virgin raises a question I've always wanted to ask you. The photo shows a prominent dark color on the vertical stabilizer. Some books have claimed it's because the subcontractor making the vertical stabilizer got the specs wrong and used "Medium Green 42" instead of standard OD (I forget the precise nomenclature).

I don't really buy that though. I think it's just a much darker shade of OD. What's your view?

KPHB17FE
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Posted: Friday, May 29, 2020 - 09:44 PM UTC
Most of the Boeing built airplanes had that color difference. If you get at the right angles you can see the same on the horizontal stabs and the outer wing panels as well. Near as I can tell, Boeing had a different paint supplier and theirs was just a lighter OD. But it was not Medium Green that the sub-contractors used. I have experimented in achieving this effect and never seem to do it the same way twice. I have been using the MRP paints lately so I base the model in their OD 41 then go over the main fuselage and inner wings with their Light Khaki. But the contrast is not quite enough so that is something you will want to experiment with. And of course, the paint brand you use will offer other options.

Here are a few of my attempts:










Redhand
#522
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Posted: Saturday, May 30, 2020 - 02:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Most of the Boeing built airplanes had that color difference. If you get at the right angles you can see the same on the horizontal stabs and the outer wing panels as well. Near as I can tell, Boeing had a different paint supplier and theirs was just a lighter OD. But it was not Medium Green that the sub-contractors used. I have experimented in achieving this effect and never seem to do it the same way twice. I have been using the MRP paints lately so I base the model in their OD 41 then go over the main fuselage and inner wings with their Light Khaki. But the contrast is not quite enough so that is something you will want to experiment with. And of course, the paint brand you use will offer other options.



Thanks for this! It will be a lively topic of discussion between H.G. and me, for sure.

Let me also "let the cat out of the bag" at this point about Vicious Virgin. Kind of by unspoken and then spoken mutual agreement, HG and I decided that after he finishes Luscious Lady, he will do a version of Vicious Virgin. It won't be as opened up as Luscious Lady, but it will feature other elements that we don't see in this build, such as open flaps.

These two aircraft of the two main B-17s that the crew I wrote about in Half a Wing flew, and I don't believe that Vicious Virgin has been kitted or done by anyone.

I'm probably going to tackle the aluminum finish 303rd B-17G Idaliza for the upcoming Eighth Air Force campaign using the 1/48 HK kit.




More on that later.
Redhand
#522
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Posted: Saturday, May 30, 2020 - 06:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Brian,
All I can say once again is that I'm simply speechless. World Class modeler building a world class model. Just can't get any better then that.

joel



Well, Joel, I've been damn lucky in this mad quest. I am very reliant on the artistic skill of H.G. and the expertise of Karl to get this far. I am both grateful and kinda exhilarated at this point because we're beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Redhand
#522
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Posted: Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 03:11 AM UTC
VECTOR NORDEN BOMBSIGHT DETAILS

Now that Karl Hauffe has cleared up what the configuration of the Norden Bombsight looked like in the B-17F nose, it's time to showcase H.G.'s detailing of the Vector 1/48 version of this "secret weapon," which the Germans apparently the plans for as early as 1938!). See Malcolm Gladwell's somewhat polemical Ted Talk, "The strange tale of the Norden bombsight." This is not to take away from the brave bombardiers who used it in combat, or H.G.'s detailing of it!

Without further ado, here's the real thing (again)



and H.G.'s replication of it.













It certainly merits multiple views.

I note that we are now well over a year into H.G.'s work on this project! The ambitions to make the best possible B-17 model in 1/48 are evident from the huge amount of work he has already put into it! For that I am grateful.
rdt1953
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Posted: Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 03:15 AM UTC
Beautiful !
Redhand
#522
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Posted: Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 03:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Beautiful !



Thanks!
KPHB17FE
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Illinois, United States
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Posted: Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 03:42 AM UTC
Looks great! I don't know how one even holds on to something that small. I end up chasing that sort of thing all over creation! And there are times when the carpet monster wins...
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
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Posted: Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 03:50 AM UTC
Brian,
I'd say that HG has certainly done it again with that super detailed Norton bomb sight.

Joel
Redhand
#522
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Posted: Sunday, June 07, 2020 - 05:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Looks great! I don't know how one even holds on to something that small. I end up chasing that sort of thing all over creation! And there are times when the carpet monster wins...



I agree, the rubber gloves holding the sight tell the story on size.

Ah yes, the carpet monster. For me these days, its cousin on the work table top is almost an equal menace.
Redhand
#522
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Posted: Monday, June 08, 2020 - 05:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Looks great! I don't know how one even holds on to something that small. I end up chasing that sort of thing all over creation! And there are times when the carpet monster wins...



Karl & Others: H.B. advises he is not finished with the Bombsight. I know the metal platform on which the entire sight and "autopilot" components sit has to be painted aluminum, but we'll just have to see what else is in store.
Redhand
#522
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Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 12:25 PM UTC
WINDOW REPLACEMENT



So, we're at the point where H.G. is starting something that I dreamed we might do but felt had such inherent risks I wondered if it was really possible.

To begin, the kit windows never fit correctly. They weren't designed to fit flush with the skin of the aircraft and as the overall quality of the build started to improve under H.G.'s hands we both felt that "window replacement" was a necessity.

Also, to be candid, the damn things were dirty and just wouldn't clean up.

The question was, how to accomplish window replacement on a completed fuselage, especially in the nose? You will recall that the side windows were glued-in in a way that made it impossible to just pop them out.

The only answer is drilling them out, and that's what you'll see below.
















The breadth of the work on this model overwhelms me sometimes, and I'm not even doing it! The project is beginning to remind me of an early short story by Franz Kafka: "The Great Wall of China."



It's available online at the link, and if you care to read it you'll get the analogy to this effort! And yeah, Kafka was a bit strange. He was, after all, the guy who wrote Metamorphosis, the story about the man who went to bed one night and woke up changed into a giant cockroach. (I'll spare you some book cover art on it. The very idea is creepy enough as it is.)

More to follow, but in the plastic, not literary arts!
SpeedyJ
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Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
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Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 07:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text

WINDOW REPLACEMENT



So, we're at the point where H.G. is starting something that I dreamed we might do but felt had such inherent risks I wondered if it was really possible.

To begin, the kit windows never fit correctly. They weren't designed to fit flush with the skin of the aircraft and as the overall quality of the build started to improve under H.G.'s hands we both felt that "window replacement" was a necessity.

Also, to be candid, the damn things were dirty and just wouldn't clean up.

The question was, how to accomplish window replacement on a completed fuselage, especially in the nose? You will recall that the side windows were glued-in in a way that made it impossible to just pop them out.

The only answer is drilling them out, and that's what you'll see below.
















The breadth of the work on this model overwhelms me sometimes, and I'm not even doing it! The project is beginning to remind me of an early short story by Franz Kafka: "The Great Wall of China."



It's available online at the link, and if you care to read it you'll get the analogy to this effort! And yeah, Kafka was a bit strange. He was, after all, the guy who wrote Metamorphosis, the story about the man who went to bed one night and woke up changed into a giant cockroach. (I'll spare you some book cover art on it. The very idea is creepy enough as it is.)

More to follow, but in the plastic, not literary arts!



Will have to purchase that one. His style of writing is of my liking.

Great you're still on this one. Every once & a while I lurk inside. Great job and model.
Redhand
#522
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 11:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

WINDOW REPLACEMENT


It's available online at the link, and if you care to read it you'll get the analogy to this effort! And yeah, Kafka was a bit strange. He was, after all, the guy who wrote Metamorphosis, the story about the man who went to bed one night and woke up changed into a giant cockroach. (I'll spare you some book cover art on it. The very idea is creepy enough as it is.)

More to follow, but in the plastic, not literary arts!



Will have to purchase that one. His style of writing is of my liking.

Great you're still on this one. Every once & a while I lurk inside. Great job and model.



You can actually read the whole story online at the link. Thanks for stopping by.
Redhand
#522
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Posted: Thursday, July 16, 2020 - 04:03 PM UTC
WINDOW DRESSING

Yes, the work continues. (Did you have any doubt?) H.G. completed drilling out the windows in the nose and at the radio room and the results are spectacular.









I'm looking forward to seeing the document on the radioman's table remain visible once the window is installed.

H.G. has also started installing detailed rivets in the nose



While being mindful of our need to relocate the pitot tubes



per Karl's suggestion below.



(Karl's work not ours).

The instruments themselves are also being reworked.



That would not even have occurred to me if I were soldiering on by myself.

Seeing how the work is progressing



I'm reminded of the restoration of the Memphis Belle.



An added treat is H.G.'s continuing work on scribing and riveting from the nose back to the radio room.








Obviously the cockpit windows are going to need to be replaced. But, I sent a number of replacement windows to H.G. and I know they will be put to good use.

Here is some fine extra detailing on the roof itself.



And equally fine work heading aft of the cockpit.




I am told, just wait until the primer is put on.











More to follow, of course.
KPHB17FE
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Illinois, United States
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Posted: Thursday, July 16, 2020 - 10:25 PM UTC
Looking good guys. A small detail for you. The kit represents the B5 drift recorder on the left side. This was only on a few aircraft and is correct for the "Memphis Belle" as originally released. But for your bird it is not. The tube you have protruding from the lower right is for the B3 driftmeter. Those two instruments had the same function and would not have both been in the same airplane.

Redhand
#522
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Friday, July 17, 2020 - 03:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Looking good guys. A small detail for you. The kit represents the B5 drift recorder on the left side. This was only on a few aircraft and is correct for the "Memphis Belle" as originally released. But for your bird it is not. The tube you have protruding from the lower right is for the B3 driftmeter. Those two instruments had the same function and would not have both been in the same airplane.




Thank you Karl!!