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Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
IDF Panther Tank?
tankmodeler
#417
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 02:17 AM UTC

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You keep going back to the tooling up issue...the hardest part of setting up a manufacturing base is actually tool making. Depending on the timeline, and based on their experience in 1948 making Armored Cars they would have simplified. This is quite normal process. Also the Panther type suspension was way over engineered, except for the French Prototypes it was largely dropped post war. By the time they would have been manufacturing the 1950's the French already had the M47 Tank, and would have shared their information with Israel and they would have used a simpler to manufacturer torso bar set up. Also they would have changed the Transmission.

Just having the drawings doesn't mean that its easier to build. Having worked over twenty years in manufacturing as a designer/draftsman. It is based on what you have to build your tooling.



Having worked 35 years in design and manufacturing I know exactly what you mean, but if you have to design all the tooling, including some (just some) that is a bit more complex) for a complete design you have versus holding up tooling the stuff you have to wait until you go through the design and development phase for a new and significant portion of the system and then tool it all up, it's going to take longer and cost a lot more.

But, hey, that's my take based on my years being a design and project engineer in three industries. If that's not your take, we can agree to disagree, because, lets face it, they didn't do any of this in real life and we're spitballing here. :-)

Paul
Cantstopbuyingkits
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European Union
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 02:47 AM UTC

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Paul,

In the context of my question, you'd have to go back to the first post where he said that Israel would make their own Panthers. So wouldn't it be easier to mount a boogie system then double torso bars in that context?



Well, my build doesn't live in the world of Israelis building their own Panthers, however, for completion's sake, the Israelis didn't have any possibility of making their own tank of any kind in 1947 or for many years thereafter.

If you were looking at a medium tank to build and pattern your new armoured force after in 1947, you'd have likely picked the Centurion right off the bat versus trying to modify Panthers and get a totally new industry off the ground at the same time. If the Israelis had built Panthers any time before 1956 they would have almost _had_ to keep them exactly as the Germans built them with only very small changes. They simply didn't have the heavy industrial capacity to do anything else.

Paul



Using your logic they would have simplified the suspension because it would use less of the industrial capacity. By 1956 they would have probably used the US Torsion bar. They would have been exposed to simpler torso bars through the M48 and the T-54/T-55.


Disagree.

While the Horstmann suspension might be a bit simpler to manufacture, remember we're talking about them starting an entire industry here. If they have the whole drawings for the Panther, as is, then it's far easier to tool up for that than to have to redesign _anything_ including designing a new Horstmann suspension (unless they stole the design from the Brits were not talking to the Israelis at this point) and making the necessary mods to the Panther to fit either a new or stolen Horstmann suspension.

But, as I said, in the time we're talking about the Israelis didn't have the industrial capacity to doo any of this.

Similarly they didn't see any details of American or Russian torsion bar suspensions until later in the 60s by which time they were getting Centurions and M48s of their own and no need to totally manufacture their own tank or carve up the "Panthers" which would be obsolescent at that point.

Paul



You keep going back to the tooling up issue...the hardest part of setting up a manufacturing base is actually tool making. Depending on the timeline, and based on their experience in 1948 making Armored Cars they would have simplified. This is quite normal process. Also the Panther type suspension was way over engineered, except for the French Prototypes it was largely dropped post war. By the time they would have been manufacturing the 1950's the French already had the M47 Tank, and would have shared their information with Israel and they would have used a simpler to manufacturer torso bar set up. Also they would have changed the Transmission.

Just having the drawings doesn't mean that its easier to build. Having worked over twenty years in manufacturing as a designer/draftsman. It is based on what you have to build your tooling.



Because Paul want to reserve the main features of the Panther tank even with the IDF modifications of which the interleaved suspension is unarguably the most visable, so it was not changed for the build no matter the practicalities.
DG0542
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 02:48 AM UTC
Paul,

I can agree. I was just explaining my position. But lets face it it wouldn't be a Panther without that suspension.

m4sherman
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 03:29 AM UTC

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I was thinking about the manufacturing angle. What if the post WWII German tank force was based on their best tank, but "Westernized". The suspension on the M26/M46/M47 was designed for a tank about the same weight as the Panther.

That tank will be the basis for the planned improved IDF Panther. One of a group of Panthers sent to the IDF as part of the reparations from Germany.



A nicely internally consistent story that only, really requires enmity between the Soviets and Western allies to ramp up more quickly than it did at the end of the war, allowing a German army to be reinstated much earlier than it was in real life. Possibly Patton's desired conflict with the "Reds" after Germany capitulated with an armistice only after B29s drop a nuke on a Soviet Army concentration in Eastern Germany.

Germany isn't partitioned and is allowed to rebuild it's army as a bulwark against the Soviets in Poland starting in 1947 (say).

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Given that the Panther turret was much wider than it needed to be for the 75mm, and the very strong construction due to the weight and recoil of the 75mm, I see no problem with the 105 being mounted by the IDF.


That was my thought as well. In fact, it might have been able to withstand the high pressure 105 from the AMX 30 if the turret bearing race was upgraded along with the trunions.


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Add the M48A3 engine, adapted from the Centurion layout, and a few other hull modifications and I think it will make an interesting project. Not sure what all the problems will be, and the only hindrance will be not going too crazy.


You may need to lengthen the rear hull area to accommodate the transmission in the AVDS 1790 power pack. Eliminating the sharp rear angle would probably do it, and allow for more volume for fuel. One thing I discovered is that the rear hull of the Panther is very tall. It's much, much deeper than the engine bay of the M48-M60.

If the driver was reclined a bit and the tranny was in the stern, you could probably shave almost a foot off the hull height to the turret ring.

Paul

Paul



I had not noticed the short engine deck! Yikes, almost 20mm shorter than an M48. The solution is to lengthen the rear of the hull enough to fit the engine. Not sure what it will look like. Or, maybe I'll just keep the front drive sprockets which should leave plenty of room for a larger engine.

The Panther hull is taller than all the other hulls. I 'm not going to alter the hull height and will try to keep the tank as Panther shaped as possible.

While I was looking at the hulls of the Centurion and M48's for comparison I discovered a Tamiya M26 that I robbed the turret out of a while back, so I have an entire suspension already. I still need the drive sprockets and some of the small parts from the M47.



MikeRobinson
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 05:22 AM UTC
I love how much attention this post is getting

I'm also building a "what if" Panther, but not an IDF Panther. Mine will be an early-mid 50's Panther. The backstory is Germany caught wind of Japan's plan to bomb Pearl Harbor. Much to Hitler's dismay, all of his top Generals strongly urged against involving the US until later in the war due to the quickly oncoming heart of the Russian winter. Because of this, Japan looked instead to the northwest, moving slowly towards Moscow. The logistical challenge for the Japanese army of moving men and tanks through the bitterness of an Eastern Russian winter proved massive, but it did force a two-front war for Russia; something it was ill prepared for. Thanks to this, Germany and Japan were able to slowly gain mile after mile, until the two armies met in Moscow.

Having crushed the the Russian front, Germany repaid Japan with the majority of Eastern Russia, knowing it was largely useless to them. By this time America has grown restless with the looming threat on the horizon, and has begun huge war preparations, sensing what is to come. Germany now looks to Britain, which having been softened with months of air strikes and bombings, falls in less than 3 weeks after the full brunt of a German invasion.

Germany and Japan then declare war on the last imposing world power, the US. The Japanese fleet in the pacific falls slowly, but the US navy can't sustain a two-front naval battle, and German ships, with U-boat support, destroy the Atlantic fleet.
Carrying troops, aircraft, and armor alike, German ships first land in Canada, battering what army is still left after the defense of Britain.

Panthers are refit with better transmissions, armor, and guns among other improvements to keep old models competitive with tanks such as the m46.

This is just a fun little scenario I though may be possible had
A) Pearl Harbor been avoided or delayed
and B) Hitler had been slightly more reasonable, or his various ailments pushed him out of command of the army, even if just still a figurehead.

Lemme know what you thinks, pictures coming soon! I've already changed out the gun, scratch-built a new mantlet, begun the addition of a new compartment to be welded onto the rear of the turret, and some schurzen work (which will be both on the hull, AND the turret very similar to that on the Pz. IV H). Happy modeling,

Mike
iakarch
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Louisiana, United States
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 06:02 AM UTC

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I love how much attention this post is getting

I'm also building a "what if" Panther, but not an IDF Panther. Mine will be an early-mid 50's Panther. The backstory is Germany caught wind of Japan's plan to bomb Pearl Harbor. Much to Hitler's dismay, all of his top Generals strongly urged against involving the US until later in the war due to the quickly oncoming heart of the Russian winter. Because of this, Japan looked instead to the northwest, moving slowly towards Moscow. The logistical challenge for the Japanese army of moving men and tanks through the bitterness of an Eastern Russian winter proved massive, but it did force a two-front war for Russia; something it was ill prepared for. Thanks to this, Germany and Japan were able to slowly gain mile after mile, until the two armies met in Moscow.

Having crushed the the Russian front, Germany repaid Japan with the majority of Eastern Russia, knowing it was largely useless to them. By this time America has grown restless with the looming threat on the horizon, and has begun huge war preparations, sensing what is to come. Germany now looks to Britain, which having been softened with months of air strikes and bombings, falls in less than 3 weeks after the full brunt of a German invasion.

Germany and Japan then declare war on the last imposing world power, the US. The Japanese fleet in the pacific falls slowly, but the US navy can't sustain a two-front naval battle, and German ships, with U-boat support, destroy the Atlantic fleet.
Carrying troops, aircraft, and armor alike, German ships first land in Canada, battering what army is still left after the defense of Britain.

Panthers are refit with better transmissions, armor, and guns among other improvements to keep old models competitive with tanks such as the m46.

This is just a fun little scenario I though may be possible had
A) Pearl Harbor been avoided or delayed
and B) Hitler had been slightly more reasonable, or his various ailments pushed him out of command of the army, even if just still a figurehead.

Lemme know what you thinks, pictures coming soon! I've already changed out the gun, scratch-built a new mantlet, begun the addition of a new compartment to be welded onto the rear of the turret, and some schurzen work (which will be both on the hull, AND the turret very similar to that on the Pz. IV H). Happy modeling,

Mike



I think it's (NOT!) terrific how you could dream up a senecio that would put all our parents and grand parents in CONCENTRATION CAMPS TO DIE LIKE MILLIONS OF EUROPEANS. WHAT EVERY YOU MIGHT THINK IT'S NOT COOL. I LIVED THROUGH HURRICANE KATRINA. I SAW WHAT JUST A FRACTION OF DESTRUCTION CAN DO TO A COMMUNITY. I HAVE MEET EUROPEANS WHO LEFT EUROPE AFTER THE WAR AND NEVER WANTED TO GO BACK, THATS A WHOLE LOT OF HURT. I THINK TOMANY US NAVY SAILORS DIED AS IT IS, ITS NOT COOL TO IMAGINE THE WHOLE FLEET BEING SUNK. THERE'S BEEN SO MUCH ATTENTION TO UBOATS AND NOT TO THE US NAVY SUBS WHICH WERE THE FINEST AND MOST TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED OCEAN SUBS IN THE WORLD. I AS AN AMERICAN IS PROUD THAT WE WERE ABLE TO SUPPY OUR ARMY AND NAVY PLUS OUR ALLIES AND FIGHT A WAR ON A WORLD SCALE.

THERE ARE SO MANY ARGUMENTS ABOUT THE PANTHER BEING THE BEST TANK IN THE WAR. FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE SHERMAN WAS. IT WAS'NT PERFECT BUT IT WONE! AND THAT COUNTS FOR A WHOLE LOT!
MikeRobinson
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 06:18 AM UTC
I'm not advocating it by any means, I'm just coming up with a theoretical situation that may have happened. I meant no offense to you or anyone else. I'm sorry you have a problem with it, however I won't change it. If you have a problem with that then I guess my simple post on a modeling sight is the least of your worries, and you can go and target movies like "World War Z" or "War of The Worlds" in which thousands of millions of people are shown coming to their grotesque death, making hurricane Katrina or Charlie (both of which, yes I have also witnessed and lived through) look like child's play. In no way did I advocate the holocaust, nor did I even mention the Sherman, or the superiority of the Panther to any tank. So, Good day to you
Also, it looks like your caps lock key may be stuck. You should check that out
MikeRobinson
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 06:23 AM UTC
ps, every member of my family has been in the military for the past 4 generations, so I know what it means to be proud of my identity. I know my country, my rights, and how lucky I am to be an American. I didn't attack Americanism or America in general, as thousands of people around the country do. Take Oprah or Kanye West for an example, have I slandered the US or the commander in chief in any way, regardless of whether or not I support him or the actions of the US, no. So, please calm down, and enjoy the real reason you should be on this site, to model with a community in a respectful, polite way. Thank you
iakarch
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Louisiana, United States
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 04:19 PM UTC
This is a non political site, lets keep it that way. Stick to modeling.
davejr
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 08:21 PM UTC
Wow, come on this is a modeling site .modeling is a hobby it's supposed to be fun.this is a what if thread.i did not see anything wrong with a what if senerio,a fantasy.we all need to relax and remeber this is a just a hobby .
tankmodeler
#417
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 09:21 PM UTC

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This is a non political site, lets keep it that way. Stick to modeling.


It is you that has turned a purely fictional alternative history story into a political rant. There was nothing in Mike's post that was political. Not a word.

There are any number of reasons to discuss aspect's of why parts of Mike's backstory might or might not be likely, but none of them has much, if anything, to do with politics.

Your random rants about U Boats and Panthers versus US Subs and Shermans came out of nowhere and have nothing to do with this topic at all.

And finally, for the love of ghod, if you are going to go off on an all-capitals rant, have the good grace to check your spelling and grammar.

Get a grip and let Mike and the rest of us talk models and the backstories that justify our what-ifs.

If you find it offensive, don't read it and move on.

Paul
DG0542
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Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 10:13 PM UTC

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This is a non political site, lets keep it that way. Stick to modeling.


It is you that has turned a purely fictional alternative history story into a political rant. There was nothing in Mike's post that was political. Not a word.

There are any number of reasons to discuss aspect's of why parts of Mike's backstory might or might not be likely, but none of them has much, if anything, to do with politics.

Your random rants about U Boats and Panthers versus US Subs and Shermans came out of nowhere and have nothing to do with this topic at all.

And finally, for the love of ghod, if you are going to go off on an all-capitals rant, have the good grace to check your spelling and grammar.

Get a grip and let Mike and the rest of us talk models and the backstories that justify our what-ifs.

If you find it offensive, don't read it and move on.

Paul



I agree 100% Paul.

As for Paul's and my discussion was just talking about different approaches based on our experience and back ground in working in manufacturing fields.
MikeRobinson
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Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 03:44 AM UTC
Thanks everyone, glad we can all agree modeling is the main focus here
As for the discussion that was at hand, what changes do you think would be made to the Panther in my scenario to accommodate a better transmission? A smaller angle between the upper and lower glacis possibly? No change at all?
m4sherman
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Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 04:32 AM UTC

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Thanks everyone, glad we can all agree modeling is the main focus here
As for the discussion that was at hand, what changes do you think would be made to the Panther in my scenario to accommodate a better transmission? A smaller angle between the upper and lower glacis possibly? No change at all?



Just the transmission, or the complete final drive assembly? Given the turret was set so far back on the hull compared to most other tanks, there should be plenty of room in there.

I did some rough comparisons and believe the transmission and final drive assembly from the M26 would fit into the Panthers front hull with no problems, as my idea is to use the M26/26A1 as the basis for a more reliable drive line. The M46 and later US tanks used a set up like modern tanks where everything was more all in one.

I also thought about moving the turret forward about 15mm which would leave just enough room at the rear for the M48 engine. Doing that would make the tank look even more Leopard like, but it would be even less of a Panther!
MikeRobinson
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Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 05:34 AM UTC

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Thanks everyone, glad we can all agree modeling is the main focus here
As for the discussion that was at hand, what changes do you think would be made to the Panther in my scenario to accommodate a better transmission? A smaller angle between the upper and lower glacis possibly? No change at all?



Just the transmission, or the complete final drive assembly? Given the turret was set so far back on the hull compared to most other tanks, there should be plenty of room in there.

I did some rough comparisons and believe the transmission and final drive assembly from the M26 would fit into the Panthers front hull with no problems, as my idea is to use the M26/26A1 as the basis for a more reliable drive line. The M46 and later US tanks used a set up like modern tanks where everything was more all in one.

I also thought about moving the turret forward about 15mm which would leave just enough room at the rear for the M48 engine. Doing that would make the tank look even more Leopard like, but it would be even less of a Panther!



Yes, that would be so for a post war IDF Panther, however, an M46 drive assembly wouldn't be available to Germany. Thus, the transmission would likely be swapped for a more reliable version in order to keep the Panther project alive. I'm wondering, bigger transmission, road wheels, drive sprockets? Or possibly just a more reliably tranny of comparable size.

The latter would be easier to model, as little to no changes would have to be made to the kit. But then, how would you tell there's any difference with the drive assembly? Questions....
PzDave
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Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 06:02 AM UTC
Actually this has more merit than some other "What if" ideas. The French Army used panthers after WW2. They could have sent some to the IDF after the war. The Panther was an advanced tank although I don't know how it would have worked in the sand! Don't forget the French Air Force supplied Israel for many years as well as the British and Americans. Tis includes the Czech ME- 109's early in Israeli history.
Although I don't think they would have used very many Panthers. Maybe to study and learn from but not enough of them around to form any kind of real unit--don't forget spare parts availability.
MikeRobinson
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Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 08:32 AM UTC

Rough shape of the turret coming along
MikeRobinson
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Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 08:34 AM UTC

Styrene to fill in the gaps, as well as the start of a "new" shcurzen mount (maybe, if I can figure the damn thing out )







Still pretty rough, and largely OOB in many respects, but I think it'll have a slick tiger-Panther cross type feel. Still have a lot of ideas for it, so I've got a long way to go. Debating Schurzen on the turret, as seen on the Pz IV H, thoughts? Maybe I'll solder something up and dry fit it just for a feel of how it looks. Any ideas for a unique camo that may have evolved for late war camos would be useful too
m4sherman
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Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 09:10 AM UTC
quote]
Yes, that would be so for a post war IDF Panther, however, an M46 drive assembly wouldn't be available to Germany. Thus, the transmission would likely be swapped for a more reliable version in order to keep the Panther project alive. I'm wondering, bigger transmission, road wheels, drive sprockets? Or possibly just a more reliably tranny of comparable size.

The latter would be easier to model, as little to no changes would have to be made to the kit. But then, how would you tell there's any difference with the drive assembly? Questions.... [/quote]

I was thinking again (it happens at work when I'm doing PM's. Plenty of time for the mind to wander off).

What if I used the stock suspension. The Panther road wheels were not that durable and might be the first thing to be upgraded. With what?

I still intend to use the T80E1 tracks with the later M26 sprockets from the M47 kit. Those tracks had a much longer service life compared to the Panthers tracks. And, how do I make the tracks work as those are center guide tracks!

The M46 comes a bit late for this tank, so I am going to keep the front drive sprockets. That will be the only real visual change if I keep the interleaved road wheels.

You are right, a transmission upgrade would not be visible.
MikeRobinson
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Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 - 07:11 AM UTC
Anyone made any progress so far? Work and my jeep have been kicking my butt
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 12:14 AM UTC

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The Panther road wheels were not that durable and might be the first thing to be upgraded. With what?


Were the road wheels themselves not durable, or was it just the rubber on the wheels? I thought it was the latter, in which case access to real rubber, after the war, would fix that. ??


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You are right, a transmission upgrade would not be visible.



But you can indicate that something has been done to increase reliability/capability. On my model, I added gussets on the lower glacis face between the glacis and the side plate supporting the final drives. That, along with the welded shut co-driver's position, indicates something's different in there. And that's really probably enough.

If one wanted to indicate strengthened road wheels, adding .020" x .020" ribs radially outward from the hub would give that impression. I didn't bother, but I did think of doing it at one point.

Paul
m4sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 02:07 AM UTC

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The Panther road wheels were not that durable and might be the first thing to be upgraded. With what?


Were the road wheels themselves not durable, or was it just the rubber on the wheels? I thought it was the latter, in which case access to real rubber, after the war, would fix that. ??


Quoted Text

You are right, a transmission upgrade would not be visible.



But you can indicate that something has been done to increase reliability/capability. On my model, I added gussets on the lower glacis face between the glacis and the side plate supporting the final drives. That, along with the welded shut co-driver's position, indicates something's different in there. And that's really probably enough.

If one wanted to indicate strengthened road wheels, adding .020" x .020" ribs radially outward from the hub would give that impression. I didn't bother, but I did think of doing it at one point.

Paul



I think the problem with the road wheels was the rather thin contact surface of the road wheels which caused the poor quality rubber to fail. Post war I think changes would be made. I'm still thinking out the options, but a thicker road wheel is what I think is needed.

I agree, your changes to the upper hull front indicate there have been changes made. I plan on similar changes.
MikeRobinson
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Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 07:40 AM UTC
I'm not sure I can visualize the gusset. Would it be possible to post a picture of said reinforcement? Sorry for the inconvenience

Mike
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 10:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm not sure I can visualize the gusset. Would it be possible to post a picture of said reinforcement? Sorry for the inconvenience

Mike


If you look to the left and right of the lower glacis plate you can see the white triangular gussets supporting the hull side plate.



Paul
MikeRobinson
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Posted: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 08:46 AM UTC
Anyone have a spare road wheel in their parts bin? I could really use one or two. PM me if you have one you could spare, I'd really appreciate it