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The Red Baron Movie 2008
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 04:41 AM UTC

The Red Baron movie filmed in Europe 2008 Has been available to purchase in the USA since early 2010. The official US website is;

http://www.redbaronthemovie.com/

While the CGI aircraft are very realistic. The story line is a very loose interpretation of MvR''s life. Mine arrived recently and the review is in progress.

Link to Item

If you have comments or questions please post them here.

Thanks!
Mgunns
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 04:41 AM UTC
I saw this the other day. Although tempted many times to turn it off due to the utter fiction of most of it, I couldn't help but watch it. The CGI is great, the acting is so so, the scenery is pretty good, and there were some factual moments, albeit few and far. Going into it knowing the story line, and that I am watching a movie, not a documentary, I accepted it. Those looking for a well made WWI movie, like myself, will be waiting a long time. If you are in the video store or surfing NETFLIX and not knowing what to get, this would make a good choice. I would give it two stars.

Mark
thegirl
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 06:11 AM UTC
I have heard some negative opinions on this film with the historic aspects and accuracies . I kinda of see it this way , It is someones story much like reading a book , bed time tail one might say sending us into dream world .

I very much want to see the film one day with popcorn and pepsi in hand , sit back and enjoy !

Looking forward to hearing your view of the movie Stephen
Flyingjibus
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 09:58 AM UTC
The historical inaacuracies are only the tip of the iceburg of problems with this film.

Great cast, great art direction, great cinamtography,The CGI airplane scenes are even pretty good compared to most.

Where the movie falls apart is in the script and directing.

This movie is nothing more then a bad love story with the flying circus as a backdrop.

Flying scenes are brief and far between and act merely as indicators of a passage of time. The few parts of the movie that attempt to deal with being a WWI aviator or fighter pilot in general are so disconnected from the rest of the film that they lose any relevance,substance or impact.

When Producers and studio's realize that a movie about fighter pilots can be successfull without a love story is the day that we may finaly see a modern film that captures the spirit, comraderie, triumph, and tragady that was being a fighter pilot in WWI and WWII. They only need to look at the success of films like Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, etc. Those movies had no love story and they were not released striaght to video.....

The Red Baron is worth watching just to see another lame attempt, but nothing more then that.

My .02 cents....
bdanie6
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 11:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

When Producers and studio's realize that a movie about fighter pilots can be successfull without a love story is the day that we may finaly see a modern film that captures the spirit, comraderie, triumph, and tragady that was being a fighter pilot in WWI and WWII. They only need to look at the success of films like Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, etc. Those movies had no love story and they were not released striaght to video.....

Try "Fly Boys" Great story, very factual, no girls, excellent flying ( mixture of CGI and replica a/c) Loved it. Rated it 5 stars from Netflix
Later
dmopath
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 11:30 AM UTC
I have this DVD. I think that, if you accept the film (along with Flyboys) as a form of entertainment and not a documentary, it's very acceptable. I certainly appreciate the effort put into recreating the aircraft (on the ground and in the air).
Bratushka
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 03:21 PM UTC
Flyboys did show what's possible with CGI. It would be nice to see a good documentary or intelligent movie about WWI. I'd rather see a completely fictionalized movie with a made up story (Blue Max remake?)than a totally historical and factually incorrect one about real people. There's enough bad info as there is out there.

For WWI aviation fans that want a superb WWI combat flight sim PC game check out http://www.overflandersfields.com/Media.htm They have a free down-loadable one called Phase 3 and a purchase one called Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven and Hell. Both are mods for Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator 3 meaning you install it and then the WWI sim which overlays the WWII sim. Combat Flight Sim 3 is readily available and cheap on eBay. Both are outstanding and extremely challenging. Between Heaven and Hell is historically accurate from types of craft, unit location, unit morale, enemy activity, and even down to the weather for each day. Aircraft are gorgeous. Difficulty? Well, your life expectancy mirrors that of real pilots.

I'm not necessarily trying to promote the game for them, I just love WWI aircraft with the same passion I have for WWI vehicles. (And histories!)
Bratushka
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Posted: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 09:35 PM UTC
Found it on Netflix and added it to my list!
Flyingjibus
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Posted: Thursday, July 15, 2010 - 03:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text


For WWI aviation fans that want a superb WWI combat flight sim PC game check out http://www.overflandersfields.com/Media.htm They have a free down-loadable one called Phase 3 and a purchase one called Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven and Hell. Both are mods for Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator 3 meaning you install it and then the WWI sim which overlays the WWII sim. Combat Flight Sim 3 is readily available and cheap on eBay. Both are outstanding and extremely challenging. Between Heaven and Hell is historically accurate from types of craft, unit location, unit morale, enemy activity, and even down to the weather for each day. Aircraft are gorgeous. Difficulty? Well, your life expectancy mirrors that of real pilots.

I'm not necessarily trying to promote the game for them, I just love WWI aircraft with the same passion I have for WWI vehicles. (And histories!)





How does it compare to "Rise of Flight"?
Bratushka
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Posted: Thursday, July 15, 2010 - 06:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


For WWI aviation fans that want a superb WWI combat flight sim PC game check out http://www.overflandersfields.com/Media.htm They have a free down-loadable one called Phase 3 and a purchase one called Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven and Hell. Both are mods for Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator 3 meaning you install it and then the WWI sim which overlays the WWII sim. Combat Flight Sim 3 is readily available and cheap on eBay. Both are outstanding and extremely challenging. Between Heaven and Hell is historically accurate from types of craft, unit location, unit morale, enemy activity, and even down to the weather for each day. Aircraft are gorgeous. Difficulty? Well, your life expectancy mirrors that of real pilots.

I'm not necessarily trying to promote the game for them, I just love WWI aircraft with the same passion I have for WWI vehicles. (And histories!)





How does it compare to "Rise of Flight"?



More aircraft, better realism in terms of what you face having the same lethal effects as the real pilots faced. Go to the OFF site, download and watch the movies taken from actual game play. I can't think of any words that will describe things as good as the movies will. There are also a lot of them on YouTube.

I only tried the demo with Rise of Flight and I don't think it was as good as OFF but I put so much effort into OFF and actually had several pilots live long enough to build dossiers, get medals, commendations, and survive enough to get combat experience that I know I'm biased. No matter how good you are in this game, you will get taken out eventually be it a dog fight or ground fire. You may die from wounds or die from a damaged plane crashing.

With OFF Phase 3 itself being free -I got CFS 3 for like $8.00 on eBay- the price couldn't be beat. As I implied, OFF was freaking HARD to get good at! The first time I finally took down an enemy aircraft it was a real rush.

With the Between Heaven and Hell the Jastas and other units are all there and the planes have the correct unit markings and paint schemes. You can move the calendar to any day during the war and by flying with a specific unit can re-enact any number of battles. The weather is correct for that day and time. Airbases move as the war progresses and follow the real war. Units change in strength. It's just real! All those things are changeable as well and you don't have to do things historically.

I think initially RoF didn't support the TrackIR which is the only way to fly. It does now. OFF has always worked with it.

For those unfamiliar with the TrackIR, it's a device that interfaces your head movement into the view in the game. You fly with the joy stick but slight movements of your head change the view in the cockpit so you can scan around just as if you were actually there. It's great in combat because you aren't trying to fly, fight, and track the enemy with a hat switch at the same time with the joystick.

I also was quite fond of the Red Baron 3D with the Full Canvas Jacket mod which was the best WWI sim back in its day.
JackFlash
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Posted: Friday, July 16, 2010 - 02:55 PM UTC
Starting a list here of innaccuracies for the Red baron movie from 2008. I will also be drawing on lists from other websites that have similar notions.

1) Hawker flying a SE5a.
2) Hawkers insignia--- Skeleton with Scythe
3) Hawker screaming.
4) No "face" on Voss' Triplane.
5) MvR meeting Brown & the No. of times.
6) Incorrect Jasta Markings.
7) the "Love Affair" with the Nurse.
8) Wolff being killed in a fight after their aerodrome is bombed & because he forgot his lucky nightcap!
9) MvRs visit to the Trenches to tell the General(?) the war is lost.
10) Voss having fitted a Bentley Rotary to his Fokker Triplane.

And from Greg VanWyngarden, ". . .However, I think the whole approach, character development, "theme" and atmosphere were all wrong. MvR, his brother (boy, did they get THAT relationship wrong), and his comrades don't come off as the dedicated soldiers and (let's face it) the skillful killers they really were, trying to win a war. They come off as pampered, whining generation X-ers, in my eyes. I don't think Muellerschön ever really decided what kind of movie he was trying to make. He actually said that (here's a common refrain) that he wasn't making a documentary - but that the more he found out about MvR, the more he thought that the real MvR was like he was portrayed in the movie!! So, is it an anti-war movie, a heroic flag-waver for Germany, or what??
. . ."

Mike O Neal from New Jersey. ". . .1) The roll, climb and turn rates of the airplanes - just like StarWars....
2) The goofy blue eyeglasses on Ralph Fiennes. Anyone who has flown an open cockpit airplane - with a tiny, tiny windscreen - knows they get lost in a second.
3) The pains they took to get lots of things right - using Albatrossen and getting most of the markings from disparate units in the ball park - then putting them all in the same squadron.
4) Getting actors who at least appear close to the characters they are portraying and then going way off base for their personalities.
5) The no-man's land meeting of Brown and vR was hysterical....
6) The markings on Hawkers SE-5 were ESC 94.... I'm pretty sure the only accurate thing about that whole sequence was the pilots name.

The one thing I say repeatedly when asked about this movies is that it seemed that they started out with the intention to at least get something hsitorically correct, then got tired of it and just made stuff up as they went along.

Either go all out and get it right, right down to the buttons, or make the whole thing up and use ficticious names. Someone with zero knowledge of the era will look at this and assume because some of it's right, most of it's right.

I don't mind just being entertained - if that's what the movies is - but as Greg pointed out is seems they never decided which direction they were going with it. . ."
badwolf
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Posted: Friday, July 16, 2010 - 08:45 PM UTC
I haven't seen this film, but knowing what the outcome is when history is turned into a movie, i would rather spend my money on a new kit, the trouble is in a few years time younger people watching stuff like this think thats how it was, and believe that this is the reality of war and history. i know we go to see films to be entertained etc, but when it comes to points in history if you don't get it right then don't make it!
JackFlash
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Posted: Friday, July 16, 2010 - 09:53 PM UTC
They did the same thing to The Blue Max in 1966.
Kornbeef
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Posted: Friday, July 16, 2010 - 10:14 PM UTC
Well the DVD has been out here for months (UK)....now you know why I didnt post and rave about it....apart from the CGI aircraft modelling and possible wary uniform detail picking its a shelf space filler and likely not to get a second airing.

K
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 05:48 AM UTC
". . .Lothar issue #1 (uniform)
In all scenes of the trailer, as well as the footage provided on the movie's homepage, Lothar is certainly not wearing the uniform of the 4th Dragoons "Bredow" - The one he's wearing is a cuirassier uniform- they seem to have gotten the regimental color right at least, since the collar-facings are yellow, but with that uniform it would make Lothar a member of the 7th Cuirassiers "Seydlitz".

Lothar issue #2 (uniform again)
2/3 through the english trailer, we see Manfred lighting the cigarette of his brother who's all of the sudden wearing an officers cap with red facings. He must have changed his regiment again. Since up to his orbituaries he is listed everywhere as a member of the 4th Dragoons, this is just plain wrong as well

Voss issue #1 (period decorum)
this concerns the german trailer, where we see a scene suring which Voss arrives with a supply wagon while Manfred and assorted officers are standing around, and challenges him to find the 2-seater Richthofen just shot down to- as Voss puts it: "confirm your kill, Mistkerl" which loosely translates into anything from "scumbag" over "a$$hole" to "bastard" and would have gotten him at least reprimanded, if not courtmartialled.

Voss issue #2 (personal casting question)
if they go through the trouble of finding actors who are close to the age of the people they portray in this movie (Schweighoefer, Bruch, Mehmet, Schroeder, Koffler are all under 30), why on earth do they cast 45 year old Til Schweiger as Werner Voss, who died barely reaching 21? He doesn't even look the part. - Benno Fuermann or Moritz Bleibtreu (not a particular fan of either of them, but they can act) are not only significantly younger but wouldn't look any less like Voss than Mr. Schweiger does. did the man buy himself into the movie, or does every German film have to star Til Schweiger now?


Kaiser Wilhelm issue (period decorum)
German trailer again. Here, Wilhelm directly adresses Richthofen "Ich könnte denken, er wird von den jungen Fraeuleins umschwaermt." That particularily annoys me, becaue its wrong either way. The language used by the Kaiser in 1917/18 would have been the nowadays normal "Ich könnte denken, Sie werden...". But probably to highlight the status of the mighty Kaiser, they had him use some . . . Federic-the-Great-style 3rd person "er"- that's allright with me but if you opt to do that, at least do it properly and let the emperor use the Pluralis Majestatis "we" as well. . ."
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 06:21 AM UTC
from Director Nikolai Müllerschön:

". . .A meticulous reconstruction of the Baron's life and the historical setting was not uppermost in mind, that didn't interest me so much. It is more important to see what is relevant for people today. I saw no sense in making the film like a well-researched documentary. However, during my preparation on the film and looking into the story of his life, the man seems to be more like how I thought he should be."

also. . .
". . . My name is Thomas, I designed ALL of the aircraft on the Red Baron feature, and gave all of the initial texture maps to Pixomondo. Obviously, I love the genre as much as all of you. But please do not speak to the film as if you know JACK, about making a feature.

With that said, I will maintain my position that The Red Baron is the greatest WW1 aviation film to date. Be advised that it is actually an ANTI-WAR film, surprising as it may be, considering that, that is not what you would expect,especially since no one up to this point has had the balls to do a film like this.... but hey, if you don't get it, you don't get it. . ."
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 06:43 AM UTC
Adrian Roberts wrote,

". . .I wanted to like this film. After all, someone had been interested enough in WW1 aviation to make it - surely, they would try and do a good job. But maybe they had to compromise for commercial reasons; turning the Red Baron from a Prussian Officer into a 21st century teenager feels like that. Whatever, this film was irredeemably awful on lots of levels.

I could have forgiven them the CGI aeroplanes. Any WW1 or even most WW2 aviation films are going to have to use CGI or replicas and the latter can be just as suspect. The CGI aircraft at least looked accurate, markings and storyline aside: I quite liked the wood-varnished Albatros DII types. But that's the end of the good news. When a real aircraft appears, it is a Curtiss Jenny masquerading as a German two-seater.

I knew we were in trouble in the opening soft-focus shots of a group of handsome Aryan teenage boys, including Manfred von Richthofen as a 14 year-old when he sees a Morane-like monoplane and deciding he wants to fly - in 1906?! I nearly switched off when I saw Lanoe Hawker as a fat man with a beard (wrong on both counts and the beard wouldn't be allowed in the RFC), shot down in an SE5 - in 1916! Throughout, MvR is portrayed as a youth with a shock of blond hair who swans around in a polo-necked pullover. I know that many fighter pilots were very young; certainly Kurt Woolf looks very boyish in genuine photos of him: but MvR was 25 in 1917 and a career military officer: I don't think "boy" is what anyone meeting him would have thought. Was he blond? Photos mostly show him with his head covered; if not he is always shaven-headed - but I didn't think he was blond. Perversely, Werner Voss who was only 20 and fairly skinny, is portrayed as a rugged older man who fits his Dr.I with a captured "Bentley rotary", all by himself in the hangar! (No face on the cowling)

Even on its own terms as a coherent piece of fiction the film fails. I think even someone with no knowledge of WW1 would be annoyed by the rapid changes of scene, many of them with no discernable purpose. And who is going to be convinced by the scene set in 1917 in which MvR and Roy Brown both force-land in No-Man's Land, which is portrayed as an idyllic cornfield. Despite one of them having a pistol, they make no attempt to fight or take each other prisoner; MvR saunters over to Brown; they exchange cigarettes and have a man-to-man chat about the futility of war. Brown says: "I may have to kill you some day!", and then they part company and amble back to their own lines, presumably avoiding being shot by both sides as they jump into the trenches. Doh!!! The only accurate bit is that Lothar is portrayed as taller and thinner than Manfred, and with dark hair.

And of course they have to have a female lead; the nurse Katie Otdersdorf. In real life she nursed him back to health after his head wound, but to say she did anything else is speculation. In the film, they eventually get it off, but to assume this is likely is it to look at it with a contemporary perspective. A true gentleman would not have an affair with a woman of lower class whom he could never marry, unless she was actually a prostitute, in which case it was accepted. As to his head injury, there is no attempt to portray the fact that he spent the rest of his life in pain. He did become depressed about the loss of his comrades, but he did not tell the Kaiser to surrender!

At the end, Katie waves good-bye in her nightdress as he sets off on his last flight, and then the film runs out of money because we don't see what happens to him. At the least the end credits say it is not certain that Brown shot him down. But to add insult to injury, Katie gets across the lines to Allied territory "helped by friends", meets Roy Brown, who shows him the Rittmeister's grave where she pays a tearful farewell! . . .

A non-enthusiast who had little knowledge of the truth may possibly think its "so bad that its good", noticing only the multiple cliches and anachronistic attitudes. Personally, I'm thinking of asking . . .for my money back and taking out a Fatwa on the film director and anyone remotely associated with this drivel.

Adrian"
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 06:59 AM UTC
Who would have thought that a Movie review could be done best by a fellow WWI aviation fanatic, who work at a newspaper? Our own Burl Burlingame has put in his 2 cents and its spot on IMHO.

"Every once in a while a movie comes along that you can't wait to see, but when you finally get to see it, you realize — sigh — that it's just a movie, and not a very good one at that. "The Red Baron" hit me that way.

Made a couple of years ago, "Der Rote Baron" was supposedly the most expensive film ever made in Germany, and when it was released, it was a tremendous flop. It was hard to figure out why from reviews. The YouTube clips of the flying sequences looked tremendous. Apparently, Germans don't care much for war movies these days, even those that star a great national hero.

It took from then until now for the film to be released on disk. I tried to pick one up at Suncoast, but the girl there told me tartly that a film like that doesn't appeal to "their" class of customers. Shrug. Order a copy of "The Red Baron" on Blu-Ray, which arrived promptly. I prepared by previewing Roger Corman's "Von Richthofen and Brown," from 1969.

The Red Baron is Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen, the highest-scoring ace of the Greta War, with 80 victories, one of the first superstar pilots and a pop-culture icon. He was the terror of the Western Front until he was shot down by either Canadian pilot Roy Brown or a gang of Aussie soldiers on the ground popping off with rifles.

"Von Richthofen and Brown" was a low-budget actioner that contrasted the command styles of the two men, von Richthofen the dashing, titled Prussian; Brown, the dour, common realist. The remaining cast is a rogue's gallery of famous aviators, including Hermann Goring, Ernst Udet and teenage Werner Voss, von Richthofen's rival and friend. It is a snapshot of the changing face of warfare, and is largely successful as a movie. But it suffered from its small budget, and the aeroplanes and other details were inaccurate, although likely only us rivet-counters noticed.
Flash-forward to now, with a grand budget and the latest CGI techniques, and "The Red Baron" looks terrific and the aeroplanes are wonderfully accurate. The old gang is here, particularly Voss, although the new movie makes him a grizzled veteran instead of a talented teen. Nikolai Müllerschön, who wrote and directed, also adds a fictional Jewish pilot, although there were plenty of real Jewish pilots in the Fliegerkorps, such as Wilhelm Frankl. It's an odd political move that smells like apologia.
Both movies, interestingly, make much of the German pilots' veneration of ace Oswald Boelcke, almost as if he were a religious figure.

Virtually every review of "The Red Baron" points out it fails whilst on the ground, although it soars while in the air. Absolutely true. Taking the audience along in the dreamlike trance of flight is something movies are good at. It's not only a thrill ride for the audience, it also helps explain the motivations of the pilots.

There are many things that go wrong here. One is the reoccurring figure of Roy Brown (Joseph Fiennes) who seems to slip through the Western Front with ease just to have chitchats with von Richthofen. Another is a drummed-up romance with nurse (Lena Headey) that relies on her having abrupt changes of personality in every scene. And it's storytelling suicide to cheat the audience out of the the two most famous dogfights in the Great War, von Richthofen vs. Brown, and Voss vs. a whole sky full of British SE.5s. These battles, that should have been the cathartic heart of the film, are simply shrugged away.

It also doesn't help that Matthias Schweighöfer, who plays the title role, is thuddingly void of command charisma. It's partly the fault of the script, which pushes the image of von Richthofen as a rather sweet, sensitive soul who just happens to kill dozens on men in vicious aerial combat.
The main problem, though, is that Müllerschön just couldn't decide what his film was about. It needed a tough rewrite from someone who could keep eyes on the prize. Is "The Red Baron" a meditation on the evolving spirit of German martial ardor during the 20th Century? An analysis of the conflict between command and celebrity? A three-way romance between a pilot, his gal and his fighter plane? An engaging bio-pic about someone was once a world-famous figure, and is now a label on a frozen pizza?

This last is the worst. If you're going to tell the story of a historic character, even if you have to telescope events and personalities, at least get his personality right. Otherwise, it's literally character assassination. Von Richthofen was a dangerous, wily aerial tactician; a killer; a charismatic leader; a superb manager of public image. That's an interesting person. This rather damp, twee youngster posing in aviator togs in "The Red Baron" is just playing dress-up."
jaypee
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Posted: Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 08:09 AM UTC
We are a picky bunch though.
I will get this out an dI enjoyed Flyboys and Blue Max.

I just want Peter Jackson to make "Goshawk Squadron" that might be the RFC's "Saving Private Ryan". Sam Goldwyn holds the rights since.... 1971!
mtnflyer
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Posted: Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 09:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have heard some negative opinions on this film with the historic aspects and accuracies . I kinda of see it this way , It is someones story much like reading a book , bed time tail one might say sending us into dream world .



I'm sorry Terri.
With the greatest respect to your person, I must make this correction.
I believe you mean't to say, "bed time tale".

Personaly, I think this movie stinks, and place it in the same category as the "Tora!Tora!Tora!" love story adventure.

Guy

jaypee
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Posted: Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 11:52 AM UTC
bed time tail works for me Behave Terri!
MichaelSatin
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Posted: Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 01:19 PM UTC
I can't help but comment:

First: I saw this movie at the Redbox and rented it for a dollar. I kinda made it to the point where Richtofen and Brown "met" in "no-man's-land" and discussed politics. I could make it through with the "it's only a movie" attitude to that point, then I had to turn it off. It's SO historically off-kilter, I couldn't even watch any more. I thought "Fly Boys" was bad, but it deserves an award for historical accuracy compared to this stinker. At least Fly Boys didn't use actual names (well, not many).

Second: Teri and John-Paul- naughty naughty!

Michael
thegirl
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Posted: Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 02:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I have heard some negative opinions on this film with the historic aspects and accuracies . I kinda of see it this way , It is someones story much like reading a book , bed time tail one might say sending us into dream world .



I'm sorry Terri.
With the greatest respect to your person, I must make this correction.
I believe you mean't to say, "bed time tale".

Personaly, I think this movie stinks, and place it in the same category as the "Tora!Tora!Tora!" love story adventure.

Guy




Oh yeah , and that too !

I always behave myself , I'm an angel .....
retiredbee2
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AeroScale: 16 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 03:10 PM UTC
Have not seen it and might buy it at the used video store. I do not loose sleep if a tunic only has six buttons when it should have had eight. Gross inaccuracies well..........If it is a bad movie its a shame because I really liked Joseph Fienne's performance in "Luther".........Al
BurlBurlingame
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Hawaii, United States
Joined: October 01, 2009
KitMaker: 53 posts
AeroScale: 52 posts
Posted: Monday, July 19, 2010 - 03:19 PM UTC
Sam Goldwyn has the rights to "Goshawk Squadron"? He sure can pick 'em.