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World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
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Aeroscale P-47 Thunderbolt SIG
rdriscoll
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 24, 2007
KitMaker: 180 posts
AeroScale: 50 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:10 AM UTC
From Mighty Eighth (RA Freeman), Sorry my copy is over 30 years old. First time I saw that Lucky nose art was on both sides.

rdriscoll
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 24, 2007
KitMaker: 180 posts
AeroScale: 50 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:09 AM UTC
Here are some more photos:

From Mighty Eighth (RA Freeman), Sorry my copy is over 30 years old. First time I saw that Lucky nose art was on both sides.
IMG]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk85/rdriscoll_album/Lucky4.jpg[/IMG]

Double Lucky.
No clue where this came from. It was from the net. Note the caption wrongly refers to "All Hell", the a/c that was shot up on 26 June 43. Not very likely, check the s/n and the fact that it has invasion stripes. Johnson was home well before D-Day.


Double Lucky during photo session with press.
DVD Fight for the Sky 8th Air Force Aces Mayday!Mayday!Mayday!


Double Lucky from same photo session with press.





lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,249 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Nige....the magazine only printed the text of Christensen's combat report, no a/c data..and thanks for the Johnson pics too..they must be super-rare...I've not seen anything like them anywhere....apart from this SIG !!



Thanks Neil.
Its a shame about the combat report. Im pretty sure I read somewhere that Christensen was flying Rozzie Geth II/ Miss Fire when he downed the Ju52's. I dont think the photos are that rare, I guess I just know where to look
My collection of P47 related books is over 40 at the last count, many specific to the 56th, and theres also the books I have on the Mighty Eighth and other WW2 subjects.
Nige
FalkeEins
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 868 posts
AeroScale: 690 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:59 AM UTC
..thanks for your replies guys ....and again to you Nige !...This SIG is a unique one-stop reference source for P-47 info thanks to your efforts..
(..shame we haven't got similar for the P-51 or P-40 or even Fw 190 or Bf 109 come to that..!)

Nige....the magazine only printed the text of Christensen's combat report, no a/c data..and thanks for the Johnson pic too....it must be a rare one...I've not seen anything like it anywhere....apart from this SIG !!

Rex, thank you....I recently picked up the Hess/Ivie book but didn't see the Johnson pic.....its not in his 'Wolfpack' book either.
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,249 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:47 AM UTC
Another couple of "Lucky" photos. One very well known and the other less so.
Firstly, a very young looking Robert Johnson and Lucky.

Next,from left to right..
Robert Johnson, Hub Zemke, Walker "Bud" Mahurin

You can just make out the three kill markings underneath the artwork.
Nige
rdriscoll
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 24, 2007
KitMaker: 180 posts
AeroScale: 50 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:30 AM UTC
Neil,

Sorry. Where did my education go.
The color photo of Lucky (starboard side) is from Fighters of the Mighty Eighth (Hess & Ivie, 1990, Motorbooks). I bought the book on eBay. Finding that photo made the price of the book.
Photo 1 is from: http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery.php?Group=56&Style=item&origStyle=list&Item=87&Temp=919&searchString=
Photo 2 is from web-birds.com (select 8th Air Force, 56th FG in the left pane. Then click on 61FS insignia. There a many useful photos)
I am not sure where I got photo 3. I am sure it is from the net. Everytime I find a 56FG photo I copy into a Word document. The first document is 70 pages.

lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,249 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:27 AM UTC
Hi Neil.
All the footage I have of "Miss Fire" is from the port side. The artwork on the cowling definately has a yellow background.
I have no evidence to suggest that the kill markings were displayed on the starboard side also.Just the swastika flags on the port fusalage.
The wheel hubs dont appear to be red as in many cases of Boxted era 56thFG T'bolts. They have the covers in place and look like a dark centre with a lighter grey border. This area of the plane is in heavy shadow so its hard to tell, but on the footage from the side of the runway as "Miss Fire" passes theres no hint of red. B&W photos I have seem to support this.
General details on Miss Fire.
No underwing pylons fitted when the film was shot. Drop tank is the flat 150 gallon type. Fusalage invasion stripes not present on the upper surfaces. Yellow rudder. Prop is an asymetrical paddle blade.
On the combat report you have the serial number of the aircraft flown that day should appear to the right of the pilots name. Rozzie Geth II/ Miss Fire was 42-26628.
I have a combat report from Christensen dated July 5th 1944 and he was flying Miss Fire on that date. I suspect he was also flying it 2 days later when he had the party with the Ju52's.
I have a copy of the gun camera footage from the 7th July mission but it doesnt include the serial number of the aircraft flown.
Heres a clear B&W photo of LM-C which shows the wheels and prop to good advantage.
Note that in this photo underwing pylons are fitted to Miss Fire.

That should just about cover everything, but if you need any more info just shout up.
All the best
Nige
FalkeEins
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 868 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 09:07 AM UTC
Thanks for the great info Nige...!! ..do your pics show the red wheel hubs..? and/or kill markings on the starboard fuselage/cockpit area ...

...there's a B&W close-up of Christensen in front of 'Miss Fire' which hints at a background colour in the Campbell's 'Warpaint' book of nose art ....but which is not there on any artwork I've located....I'm looking principally at an 'Avions' magazine special on 'D-Day Aces' (good subject for a campaign ...?) which features Christensen's combat report from 7 July 1944 when he claimed six Ju 52s ! According to another source though Christensen wasn't apparently flying 'Miss Fire' that day but a razorback coded LM-H....
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,249 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 08:43 AM UTC
I turn my back for 5 minutes and the SIG has a frenzy of activity!
Excellent guys!
Ok,,where to start. Firstly, thanks Rex for entering into the spirit of the SIG with the photos of "Lucky".
Neil, they can be found on Peter Randalls excellent site www.littlefriends.co.uk,infact, the pilot whos photo appears on the homepage is Fred Christensen, waving from the cockpit of "Missfire". Fred actually scored 21 1/2 confirmed victories.
When you get started on Missfire let me know Neil, and I will give you more information, as I have some excellent colour images.
Talking of colour,,Rex, If I could tell you the exact colours of 61st and 63rd Thunderbolts in 1945 then I too would die a happy man!.
From what I have been able figure out they were all slightly different. Basically, I would say to go with the available references of your chosen subject and apply the "it looks right" attitude. Nobody knows for certain the exact colours so your not going to get proven wrong.

Star and Bar borders.
The blue was indeed painted over the red border. I have a fragment of P47 with some of the marking intact which supports this. ( I know its genuine, I dug it up from a crashsite myself ealier this year)

Rozzie Geth II/Miss Fire.
Great of you to help Neil out with the decals Matt. I havent seen the sheet your refering to, but the other sheets Ive seen with "Miss Fire" on them show the back ground behind the "young lady" to be NMF. It was infact YELLOW. Also the red band is out of line to the rest of the cowling. ( again, I have colour images to support this )
Well, I think that covers everything thats been asked in the last couple of days
Rex, this should be the image that didnt show up on your first post.


Nige
FalkeEins
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 868 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 07:07 AM UTC
...Matt,

..you are too kind !

..and Rex..

..great pics... would love to know the source please....there is one small front 3/4 shot in the Hess/Ivie book (Fighters of the 8th ..) showing this nose art..but nothing at all in Hess' own 'Zemke's Wolfpack'...

..
f1matt
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Manitoba, Canada
Joined: August 13, 2006
KitMaker: 1,021 posts
AeroScale: 184 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 05:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

talking of which I'm up for the campaign ..just need to know if Christensen's 'Miss Fire' has ever featured on a decal sheet .....?

(thanks in advance if you can answer that one !)




Funny you should ask Neil. I have a great decal sheet produced by Sky models. It has markings for twelve different P-47's. And one of them is indeed "Miss Fire". P-47D-25 62nd FS, 56th FG, Boxted, July 1944. It has a whopping 21 kill markings. I don't plan on using those particular decals so if you PM me the details I can cut out the decals you need and mail them off to you. I could even send a copy of the instruction sheet.

-Matt
FalkeEins
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 868 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 04:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Id also like to expand the SIG into its own website. I think this would make it easier to search through it for information rather than a long list of posts in a single forum.
Talking of websites..( not THAT kind!! ), Im also thinking of creating one to display the many photos I have of old airfield sites and memorials.
I might even get chance to build something in amongst all this,,LOL.
Nige




..hit the nail on the head with that last sentence there Nige...once you start down the slippery slope of 'research', time for modelling goes out the window....and take it from me, maintaining a web-site is one of the most time-consuming things you can do ...you'll find that people just want their questions answered all the time ..for little or no thanks very often...

talking of which I'm up for the campaign ..just need to know if Christensen's 'Miss Fire' has ever featured on a decal sheet .....?

(thanks in advance if you can answer that one !)

rdriscoll
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 24, 2007
KitMaker: 180 posts
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Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 03:09 PM UTC
Here is pic 3
rdriscoll
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 24, 2007
KitMaker: 180 posts
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Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 03:08 PM UTC
Here is pic one. I do not know why it did not post on last entry.
rdriscoll
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 24, 2007
KitMaker: 180 posts
AeroScale: 50 posts
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 03:06 PM UTC
Sorry if I offended anyone with last pic. It is actually in color (colour). It is also the starboard side. Note that noseart is really poorly executed. It looks like someone used whitewash as you can see the color did not cover completely. Also, the lines of details for the fingers are almost grey, instead of the sharp black lines on decals that reproduce them. Anyway, below are 3 photos of Lucky before the application of the nose art:

Note the red outline on the star and bar.
IMG]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk85/rdriscoll_album/Luckyearly.jpg[/IMG]

Note the red surround AND Grey replacing white on the star and bars (wing and fuselage). Compare to the white HVP squadron code and aircraft letter.


Lastly, this one has white instead of grey. Also look the border around the fuselage star and bar is darker than the red in the previous photos. It looks like the red was covered by a coat of insignia blue. It is appears the original insignia has faded. Note: still no kill markings or nose art. I believe that this is the newest of the 3 photos.


rdriscoll
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 24, 2007
KitMaker: 180 posts
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Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 02:46 PM UTC
In case anybody wanted to know about Bob Johnson's "Lucky":
Port side in color.


rdriscoll
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 24, 2007
KitMaker: 180 posts
AeroScale: 50 posts
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 02:25 PM UTC
Nigel,

If you could get us the exact upper side colors for the 61st and 63rd FS P-47Ms I could die a happy man.
rdriscoll
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 24, 2007
KitMaker: 180 posts
AeroScale: 50 posts
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 02:20 PM UTC
Nigel,

Thanks for the picture of Johnson's a/c. I have been looking for an answer to the rudder question. Did anyone notice that the rear area that is covered by the canopy looks like it is natural metal. I have several shots of this section and never noticed it before.
f1matt
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Manitoba, Canada
Joined: August 13, 2006
KitMaker: 1,021 posts
AeroScale: 184 posts
Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 10:54 AM UTC
I like the idea of having SIG website. It would be a great source for everything T-bolt related.

Sorry for not updating FAT CAT recently. Just haven't had much modeling time lately. Some work has been done but not enough for a proper update. I'll get the ball rolling soon.

-Matt
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,249 posts
AeroScale: 3,270 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 12:07 AM UTC
The usual summer lull in posts but still plenty of views.
I think I'll submit the group build as a campaign suggestion for 2009.
I have a few things Id like to do with the SIG in the future.
Id like to make it a "proper" recognised SIG, this would allow me to get space at shows in the UK. ( next to the Bulldogs stand of course. Hey Mal,,with The Bulldogs, Miracle Masks, and the SIG we could get a load a space at Telford LOL.
Id also like to expand the SIG into its own website. I think this would make it easier to search through it for information rather than a long list of posts in a single forum.
Talking of websites..( not THAT kind!! ), Im also thinking of creating one to display the many photos I have of old airfield sites and memorials.
I might even get chance to build something in amongst all this,,LOL.
Nige
Tomcat31
#042
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England - North East, United Kingdom
Joined: November 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,828 posts
AeroScale: 1,720 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 18, 2008 - 11:28 PM UTC
I'd be up for a group build or campaign . I certainly have enough 1/48 tamiya kits in the stash
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,249 posts
AeroScale: 3,270 posts
Posted: Friday, May 16, 2008 - 02:34 AM UTC
Hands up who would be interested in a SIG Group build?
Im provisionally thinking that this could start at the end of Sept, ( the SIGS birthday), or perhaps Jan 1st 2009.
The first flight of the P47 was May 1941 so weve just missed that anniversary, unless we left it until next May.
Duration of the group build would be a whole year.
Alternatively I could submit the idea as a proper campaign,ribbon and all.
Thoughts please
Nige
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,249 posts
AeroScale: 3,270 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 08:59 AM UTC
While being friends with people at Halesworth and the museum often gives me access to unique reference material and personal recollections of the Wolfpack, not all information I receive is good news.
I heard today that Frank Klibbe who piloted "Little Chief" passed away recently aged 87.


Thoughts are with his family, friends and fellow veterans.
RIP
Nige
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,249 posts
AeroScale: 3,270 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 08:23 AM UTC
Looking at Frank Klibbes "Little Chief" while doing the magneto research reminded me of a couple of photos Ive been meaning to post in the SIG.
Its not very often your able to say..." this happened right here", but looking at a photo of "Little Chief" at Halesworth in one of my books I noticed the small sign depicting the hardstanding number.
In this case hardstanding number 30.


A quick cross check of my plans of the airfield shows # 30 to be one of still intact hardstandings.
Heres the entrance seen from the southern end and facing east. Hardstanding 30 is on the left and the northern entrance to hardstanding 32 is on the right.

Here we see the northern end of Hardstanding 30 looking South East towards the hardstanding 30/32 junction in the first photo.

But which end of the hardstanding is "Little Chief" ?
The direction of the joins in the concrete gave me the answer. When I took the photo of the northern end of hardstanding 30 I was standing roughly where the starboard wing of "Little Chief" is in the picture.
Very satisfying to be able to make the connection.
Nige
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
KitMaker: 6,249 posts
AeroScale: 3,270 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 12:37 AM UTC
Anybody wanting to take R2800 research to the highest level can probably do no better than purchase this book.
R2800 Pratt And Whitneys Dependable Masterpiece
Its described as the definitive document on the 2800, and Ive just ordered one from Amazon.
When it arrives I'll be able to check the differences between all the 2800 batches and link them to the P47 production batches.
I certainly know how to make work for myself!

Nige