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Proposal :: 3rd Generation Combat Jets
Nito74
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
ARMORAMA
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Lisboa, Portugal
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Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 11:54 PM GMT+7
Hi everyone !!

How about a 3rd Generation Jet Fighter Campaign ?
Well, we had the 1st and the 2nd will be over this year.
I guess it's a good time to start planning the 3rd Gen Campaign !!

3rd Jet fighter aircraft was the class of fighters developed between the early 1960s to the 1970s.

From wiki's list, feel free to add fighters :

McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II United States
Aeritalia F-104S Starfighter Italy
Fiat G.91Y Italy
Dassault Mirage F1 France
IAI Kfir Israel
IAI Nesher Israel *
Saab 37 Viggen Sweden
Mitsubishi F-1 Japan
Atlas Cheetah South Africa
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 'Fishbed' Soviet Union **
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 'Flogger' Soviet Union
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 'Foxbat' Soviet Union
Sukhoi Su-15 'Flagon' Soviet Union
Tupolev Tu-28 'Fiddler' Soviet Union
Shenyang J-8 'Finback' People's Republic of China
HAL Ajeet India

Cancelled projects are allowed too:

Egypt
Helwan HA-300 (maiden flight on March 7, 1964)

France
Dassault Mirage F2 (maiden flight on 12 June 1966)
Dassault Mirage G (maiden flight on 18 November 1967)
Dassault Mirage IIIV (maiden flight on 18 November 1967)

People's Republic of China
Nanchang J-12 (maiden flight on 26 December 1970)

Pakistan
Project Sabre II(Project Abandoned)

Soviet Union
Mikoyan-Gurevich Ye-8 (maiden flight on 11 September 1962)
Mikoyan-Gurevich Ye-150/Ye-151/Ye-152 (maiden flight on 10 July 1959)

United Kingdom
Hawker P.1121 (never built)
Hawker Siddeley P.1154 (never built)

United States
Bell D-188A (never built)
Douglas F5D Skylancer (maiden flight on 21 April 1956)
Douglas F6D Missileer (never built)
General Dynamics–Grumman F-111B (maiden flight on 18 May 1965)
Grumman XF12F (never built)
Lockheed CL-1200/X-27 Lancer (never built)
Lockheed YF-12 (maiden flight on 7 August 1963)
North American XF-108 Rapier (never built)
Rockwell XFV-12 (incapable of flight)
Vought XF8U-3 Crusader III (maiden flight on 2 June 1958)
Northrop F-20 Tigershark

West Germany
EWR VJ 101 (maiden flight on 10 April 1963)

* - Despite being based on the Mirage V, it's very similar to the SAF Cheetah.

**- Some later versions are considered 3rd Gen. Jet Fighters

_________________________________

Any takers on this one ?
betheyn
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#019
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 08:30 AM GMT+7
I would be up for this, Gen 3 was in my eyes the last of the fighters that had "character", apart from the F-15, which is just a massive brute of an aircraft.
Andy
Lakota
#123
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New Mexico, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 02:46 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

I would be up for this, Gen 3 was in my eyes the last of the fighters that had "character", apart from the F-15, which is just a massive brute of an aircraft.
Andy


I thought I was the only one that thought that.
Take care,
Don "Lakota"
Bigrip74
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 04:07 PM GMT+7
I'm, up for this one.

Bob
Nito74
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
ARMORAMA
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Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 - 02:58 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

I'm, up for this one.

Bob



What will you pick ?

I'm going with a Trumpeter Su-15 or a Mig-25.
Bigrip74
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 - 10:49 AM GMT+7
John, I am not sure what I will pick since I do not have one in the stash.

Bob
Nito74
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
ARMORAMA
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: March 04, 2008
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AeroScale: 573 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 09:40 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

John, I am not sure what I will pick since I do not have one in the stash.

Bob



Well Bob, there's plenty of time here, with only 4 interested this might not take off..
Jet engines will leave this one grounded
TigerTiger
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 - 05:10 AM GMT+7
I'm interested but also confused.

I'd like to enter an F-105 however one source says it gen 2, another gen 3 and yet another gen 5 so which do we go by?

md72
#439
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Washington, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 - 05:48 AM GMT+7
Well, not that I ever finish anything, but I've got at least 1 Phantom, an F-20 and an F-111B in the stash. and maybe even an Kfir (F-21).
MichaelSatin
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
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Posted: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 - 08:28 AM GMT+7
I might be up for this. I could do the F-4C for this one and the MiG-21F-13 for the Vietnam campaign!

Michael
betheyn
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#019
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 - 09:20 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

I'm interested but also confused.

I'd like to enter an F-105 however one source says it gen 2, another gen 3 and yet another gen 5 so which do we go by?



Well the 105 covers at least 2 of them if you go by the research dates, not sure how they are Gen 5 though?
Anything below an F is Gen 2, the F should be considered Gen 3, and the last version the G was definitely Gen 4, but the trouble with the 105 is that its not technically a fighter by that stage as its main mission capability was conventional bombing and Wild Weasel missions.
Andy
Nito74
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
ARMORAMA
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: March 04, 2008
KitMaker: 5,154 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 - 10:01 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm interested but also confused.

I'd like to enter an F-105 however one source says it gen 2, another gen 3 and yet another gen 5 so which do we go by?



Well the 105 covers at least 2 of them if you go by the research dates, not sure how they are Gen 5 though?
Anything below an F is Gen 2, the F should be considered Gen 3, and the last version the G was definitely Gen 4, but the trouble with the 105 is that its not technically a fighter by that stage as its main mission capability was conventional bombing and Wild Weasel missions.
Andy



I agree Andy.
I'd go for a Gen 3.
Nito74
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
ARMORAMA
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: March 04, 2008
KitMaker: 5,154 posts
AeroScale: 573 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 - 10:05 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Well, not that I ever finish anything, but I've got at least 1 Phantom, an F-20 and an F-111B in the stash. and maybe even an Kfir (F-21).



Mark, they are all ok.
TigerTiger
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: January 19, 2017
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Posted: Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 05:36 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm interested but also confused.

I'd like to enter an F-105 however one source says it gen 2, another gen 3 and yet another gen 5 so which do we go by?



Well the 105 covers at least 2 of them if you go by the research dates, not sure how they are Gen 5 though?
Anything below an F is Gen 2, the F should be considered Gen 3, and the last version the G was definitely Gen 4, but the trouble with the 105 is that its not technically a fighter by that stage as its main mission capability was conventional bombing and Wild Weasel missions.
Andy



Surely you mean the D is Gen 3 as the F was the trainer version of the D although still fully combat capable. Although some F's were modified under the 'Commando Nail' and 'Combat Martin' projects to become semi wild weasels, some later being converted to full F-105G wild weasel III standard or do you refer to the EF-105F?

Not a fighter, surely you don't include the F-105F that took out three Mig21's, one with AAM, one with its cannon and the last with its bombs dropped directly into the flight path of the very surprised Mig.
betheyn
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#019
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: October 14, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 06:07 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm interested but also confused.

I'd like to enter an F-105 however one source says it gen 2, another gen 3 and yet another gen 5 so which do we go by?



Well the 105 covers at least 2 of them if you go by the research dates, not sure how they are Gen 5 though?
Anything below an F is Gen 2, the F should be considered Gen 3, and the last version the G was definitely Gen 4, but the trouble with the 105 is that its not technically a fighter by that stage as its main mission capability was conventional bombing and Wild Weasel missions.
Andy



Surely you mean the D is Gen 3 as the F was the trainer version of the D although still fully combat capable. Although some F's were modified under the 'Commando Nail' and 'Combat Martin' projects to become semi wild weasels, some later being converted to full F-105G wild weasel III standard or do you refer to the EF-105F?

Not a fighter, surely you don't include the F-105F that took out three Mig21's, one with AAM, one with its cannon and the last with its bombs dropped directly into the flight path of the very surprised Mig.


Well the D was developed in the 1950's and came off the production line in May 1959, Republic was contracted by the Government in May 1962 to build a number of 2 seat F-105F's, these would be a transitional trainer and an attack aircraft with a nuclear strike capability. It then entered service on the 7th December 1963, and was a true Gen 3 aircraft.
The Thud was never intended as an out and out fighter as it was conceived to deliver a nuclear weapon at high speed.
At best it was a fighter bomber, but found its true calling as a bomber and a pioneer of the "electronic" warfare aircraft.
Yes it was credited with knocking down 27.5 MiG's, but the Skyraider also took out MiG's during the Vietnam war and a Polikarpov Po-2 during the Korean war.
I would allow an F and a D to be built in this campaign, but its not my campaign lol.
Andy
betheyn
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#019
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Posted: Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 06:36 AM GMT+7
The trouble with late Gen 2 and Gen 3 aircraft is that they became dual mission aircraft, so the sole role of fighter disappeared, as they all became multi mission capable.
Andy
TigerTiger
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Posted: Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 07:00 AM GMT+7
You could argue that of the original list only the F-104S, Foxbat, Flagon, Finback and YF-12 are fighters but even most of them could carry bombs or do other missions.
betheyn
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#019
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 08:49 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

You could argue that of the original list only the F-104S, Foxbat, Flagon, Finback and YF-12 are fighters but even most of them could carry bombs or do other missions.


Well out of all of those, only the Flagon should be considered a true fighter, as the proposed ground attack version was never built.
The YF-12 (of which three were built, a 4th ("YF-12C") was built using the front of a static airframe from one of the original three which got damaged during landing) was designed as an interceptor, whether it would have just retained that as its only ability we will never know.
The surviving airframes were loaned to NASA for research aircraft.
Blimey the list is short of true fighters .
Andy
TigerTiger
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 09:01 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

You could argue that of the original list only the F-104S, Foxbat, Flagon, Finback and YF-12 are fighters but even most of them could carry bombs or do other missions.


Well out of all of those, only the Flagon should be considered a true fighter, as the proposed ground attack version was never built.
The YF-12 (of which three were built, a 4th ("YF-12C") was built using the front of a static airframe from one of the original three which got damaged during landing) was designed as an interceptor, whether it would have just retained that as its only ability we will never know.
The surviving airframes were loaned to NASA for research aircraft.
Blimey the list is short of true fighters .
Andy



So the Gen 3 fighter build is now a Flagon build
betheyn
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#019
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 09:07 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

You could argue that of the original list only the F-104S, Foxbat, Flagon, Finback and YF-12 are fighters but even most of them could carry bombs or do other missions.


Well out of all of those, only the Flagon should be considered a true fighter, as the proposed ground attack version was never built.
The YF-12 (of which three were built, a 4th ("YF-12C") was built using the front of a static airframe from one of the original three which got damaged during landing) was designed as an interceptor, whether it would have just retained that as its only ability we will never know.
The surviving airframes were loaned to NASA for research aircraft.
Blimey the list is short of true fighters .
Andy



So the Gen 3 fighter build is now a Flagon build


Yep. Got a bit dull now with just Flagons .
I think the campaign should state the aircraft was a fighter as its primary mission.
God knows how Gen 4 will pan out .
Andy
md72
#439
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Posted: Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 10:40 AM GMT+7
So to be sure,
The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon; the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true.

Do I have it right?
betheyn
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#019
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, August 25, 2017 - 10:41 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

So to be sure,
The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon; the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true.

Do I have it right?


Well its right apart from Dragon don't tool one .
Andy
md72
#439
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Posted: Sunday, September 10, 2017 - 05:45 AM GMT+7
Found both an F-20 and an F-21 Kfir in the stash...
goodn8
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Berlin, Germany
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Posted: Saturday, September 16, 2017 - 01:12 AM GMT+7
Count me in for this one!

Would a DOUGLAS SKYHAWK A-4B fit the rules?
I know, it's developed in the late 50's (like the SKYLANCER) but had it's main service in the 60's. So for me it shows the next step away from the 2nd Gen.; new short shape and especially designed for a/c-carriers ...
Thomas
Nito74
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
ARMORAMA
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Posted: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 - 03:34 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Count me in for this one!

Would a DOUGLAS SKYHAWK A-4B fit the rules?
I know, it's developed in the late 50's (like the SKYLANCER) but had it's main service in the 60's. So for me it shows the next step away from the 2nd Gen.; new short shape and especially designed for a/c-carriers ...
Thomas



Thomas, the Skyhawk is an attack aircraft not a fighter or multirole like the F-105.