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Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Hosted by Kevin Brant
Seeing spots before my eyes.
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Sunday, August 13, 2017 - 06:36 AM GMT+7


Spad VII "Bubbles" 38th Aero after EOW 1919. The 38th was one of the last AEF units to be active on the Western front. Aircraft from other units that were withdrawn were sent to the 38th Aero for eval and disposition. This machine was retained by the 38th Aero as a hack.
CaptnTommy
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Connecticut, United States
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Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 - 07:00 AM GMT+7
Looks like Moss to me, after all, it is a wood fuselage.

I would also conjecture.. the Floor Mop paint application Method. I would assume there is a Mil-Standard for that. (somewhere in history.

also notice the thinned paint mop method used on the wings.

Happy 4th to all

Captn Tommy
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, July 02, 2017 - 10:43 AM GMT+7
Another spotty scheme seen on an LVG C.VI courtesy of WnW. It looks like some type of microbe from under a microscope.

Heatnzl
#435
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Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 10:05 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Hi all

To be honest, what strikes me most is the haunted expression of the soldier - probably also aged far beyond his years. War is a terrible business - no less so today than a hundred years ago.

All the best

Rowan



I'm wondering how he got the name Bubbles.

Cheers

Karl.
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 06:35 AM GMT+7
Interesting.
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
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United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 - 07:44 AM GMT+7
Hi all

To be honest, what strikes me most is the haunted expression of the soldier - probably also aged far beyond his years. War is a terrible business - no less so today than a hundred years ago.

All the best

Rowan
hrothgar
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Alabama, United States
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Posted: Monday, June 12, 2017 - 09:14 AM GMT+7
An interesting post Randomly circular stencils, to mimic the lozenge fabric. Probably Zeppelin had a lot of left over fabric from the Zep. program and didn't want to purchase the new stuff. It would be interesting to hear that management discussion!!

Captn Tommy
JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 10:47 AM GMT+7
It looks like the experiment with bubbles went beyond aviation.





JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 07:15 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Hi again

So they weren't involved in the 1916 London raid? That was my point in questioning what you'd posted previously.



That typo was my fault of course. It should read the LVG C.II dropped the bombs. Zeppelin had an interest in acquiring designs that could bomb England. And the LVG was a staring place. But with all the wartime reqirements the deed just did not get done until contracts were assigned and then the assembly of the "New" Zeppelin design C.I was begun. Still not satisfied they strengthened the airframe and aimed at installing the Maybach IV. (They had their own supply due to the Staaken series bombers)


Quoted Text

Thanks for the extra info on the colours. We actually had a pristine Methuen Handbook Of Colour donated to my Oxfam bookshop not long ago. It really was an "Ohh my goodness..." moment when I saw it, because it's been almost legendary ever since I started modelling seriously! (Admittedly, I was probably the only person in the shop who realised the significance of it.) I only wish I could afford it!



The only book to translate photo-grays into possible RGB color assignments. Once colors began being assigned by modern historians we still got many out of tune combinations. But it helped us understand Orthochromatic vs Panchromatic film and its effect images. British historian, Ian Huntley evidently had spirited conversations with US historian, Pete Grosz over these issues.
Merlin
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AEROSCALE
#017
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United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 09:02 AM GMT+7
Hi again

So they weren't involved in the 1916 London raid? That was my point in questioning what you'd posted previously.

Thanks for the extra info on the colours. We actually had a pristine Methuen Handbook Of Colour donated to my Oxfam bookshop not long ago. It really was an "Ohh my goodness..." moment when I saw it, because it's been almost legendary ever since I started modelling seriously! (Admittedly, I was probably the only person in the shop who realised the significance of it.) I only wish I could afford it!

All the best

Rowan
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 05:32 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Hi Stephen, Wasn't the Zeppelin C.II a fresh design that came out in late 1917? Your text might be referring to the LVG C.II.. . .



The Zeppelin C.II was that company's licence built "armed" version of the LVG B. But with stronger wings and a V strutter arrangement. They did not like the LVG C.II or could not acquire the licencing rights. ". . . These two two-seaters were designed by Paul Jaray and constructed at the Zeppelin airship factory at Friedrichshafen during the autumn of 1917. Evidently only two C I types were built. These were wooden machines with fabric covering. The C II was virtually the same aircraft, except that the balances on the tail surfaces were dispensed with and now constructed with a metal frame. Six were completed during the winter of 1917-18. Twenty C II types had been completed by the Armistice, and their destruction was ordered by the Allied Control Commission, but their sale to Switzerland was tacitly permitted. They were flown by the Swiss Air Force until 1928 and were well liked by their crews.

Production Engine was supposed to be the 240 h.p. Maybach Mb IV. Span, 120 m. (39 ft. 4 1/2 in.). Length, 7,925 m. (26 ft. 0 in.). Height, 3.585 m. (11 ft. 9 in.). Weights: Empty, 987.5 kg. (2,173 lb.). Loaded, 1,455 kg. (3,201 lb.). Speed ca. 200 km.hr. (125 m.p.h.). Climb to 5.000 m. (16,400 ft.) in 33 min.


Quoted Text

I think Dan San Abbott once called this camouflage the "Wonder Bread Scheme", although "Bubbles" is more common. Whatever, it's a fascinating oddity.



Your source is right, Dan did use that term only because of that bread's wrapper. Most people are unfamiliar with that so "Bubbles" has been a constant reference to researchers on both sides of the pond.


Quoted Text

What colours did you arrive at? If I remember rightly, Dan did suggest some about 10 years or so ago. I've never seen anyone try to reproduce it on a model, but it would be a great project and a real head-turner.



It looks like three or four colors on the Zep. C.II aircraft and using the Methuen grey tones they are comparable to the 4 color lozenge that didn't come out until late winter, early spring 1918. Though it could be similar to the 5 color camouflage that had been out since fall of 1917. Not the crosses on the Zep. C.II types are post July 1918 5 to 4 ratio. As new aircraft that puts them in the middle of 1918.

The only models I have seen this on were German Panzers of WWII and called a summer scheme.
Merlin
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AEROSCALE
#017
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Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2017 - 08:00 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

The following images are of a small batch of Zeppelin C.II types... The C.II was developed from the LVG B.I.... The C.II was the first fixed-wing aircraft to bomb London, when six bombs were dropped near Victoria station on 28 November 1916.



Hi Stephen

Wasn't the Zeppelin C.II a fresh design that came out in late 1917? Your text might be referring to the LVG C.II.

I think Dan San Abbott once called this camouflage the "Wonder Bread Scheme", although "Bubbles" is more common. Whatever, it's a fascinating oddity.

What colours did you arrive at? If I remember rightly, Dan did suggest some about 10 years or so ago. I've never seen anyone try to reproduce it on a model, but it would be a great project and a real head-turner.

All the best

Rowan
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2017 - 05:22 PM GMT+7
Greetings all.
The following images are of a small batch of Zeppelin C.II types. I found these many years ago and have had a go at discussing them with many of the living and some now gone west camouflage experts. The colors can only be guessed but using the standards for 1918 they can be extrapolated. Just a bit of a brain teaser for you research fiends, devotee and builders of WWI in plastic.



The C.II was developed from the LVG B.I, with the pilot and observer positions reversed, adding a ring-mounted machine gun to the rear. The increase in weight required a larger engine, the Benz Bz.III. Few C.I's were built before the C.II was introduced. It incorporated structural improvements and a more powerful engine.



The C.II was the first fixed-wing aircraft to bomb London, when six bombs were dropped near Victoria station on 28 November 1916. (The first air raid on London was by the Zeppelin LZ 38, in the early hours of 1 June 1915.)



Note how similar this pattern is to some of the Panzer Camouflages in the next war.